(www.cfb360.com - www.ndnation.com)
I just snicker when I hear commentators talk about Tyrone Willingham needing more time at Washington. More time for what? To kill Husky football for the next five years?
If Willingham's allowed to continue he's going to deliver a death knell recruiting class to the Huskies. Babbling idiots like John Saunders and Mark May keep talking about Tyrone needing more time for his recruiting to take hold. They forget that it's already taken hold. It is what it is and what it's always been.
Washington had a good recruiting class last year. Not elite. Not great. Just a good class. It finished anywhere between 14th and 24th in the country depending upon which service you use.
That class followed two straight recruiting classes by Willingham that didn't crack the top 25. And the only reason last year's class was good was because there were so many in state recruits that were high caliber. That won't be the case this year or in most years.
Consider this fact: over the last three years Willingham has recruited exactly four four-star or higher players from outside the state and only three are with the team.
59 comments Last one added 7 months ago — Leave a Comment
Derek Horner 9 months ago
If you want a little more detail on Willingham's destruction of Notre Dame, here ya go:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/63341-irish-faithful-charlie-weis-is-notre-dames-future
Great read! I really like how you took it from Stanford all the way to Washington. Poor dawgs... Then, again, I have mixed feelings since Washington made some condescending remarks to ND when we fired him. Additionally, sports writers in Seattle keep slinging mud at ND. Ultimately, though, I guess I wouldn't wish Ty on my worst enemy.
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Dana Smart 9 months ago
Derek, you have to realize that we have a bunch of know nothing, politically correct, spineless sports writers in Seattle. The Husky fans, as a whole, were less than pleased with the hiring of Ty the Lie and the AD who hired him is now gone.
Tyrone Willingham has defrauded the good people of Washington just like he did those at Stanford and ND. The only winner anywhere Tyrone has gone has been - Tyrone, who has fattened his bank account substantially.
I do fear that we are going to have a great deal of trouble attracting a top level coach after the way Tyrone has eviscerated the program.
Dana
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Steve Sturtz 9 months ago
Great story! As an ND Alum, I was very concerned about the TW firing. Now, I know why it was so bad during and after his tenure in South Bend. I hope Tw's golf game continues to improve so there will be a place for him on the senior tour.
It looks like the cries of racism will finally end with this article which so aptly documents a very poor body of work by a coach who had great potential.
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Michael Collins 9 months ago
Racism? Or realism?
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Joseph Palmisano 9 months ago
Don't fire Ty mid season that would be akin to him getting the death penalty - a quick death. I say Washington keeps him on and each week he has to suffer the indignity of facing the press and boosters. He made his bed he should have to sleep in it. Before you tell me he wouldn't care, he would. His ego is too big to not care.
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mike irish 9 months ago
one more person that loves to bash notre dame for the firing of Losingham is Pat Forde of ESPN. His analysis is in stark contrast to the truth, which so few writers are willing to report. Pat Forde is one of the reasons Ty was able to get a great job at UW. He pulled out the race card, like Jon Saunders, and STILL uses it, even this year as UW continues to get blown out by rebuilders such as Arizona. It is a shame whe n coaches like Losingham are given the opportunity to fail a program over and over again. UW, a proud football school, has been dealt the death penalty, much like SMU, Alabama and Notre Dame. It will take a while, but I hope they fire him today so that the recruiting can get back on track.
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Dreadnaught 9 months ago
If he was so bad, why did ND hire him?
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Derek Horner 9 months ago
We needed a quick fix to the O'Leary fiasco. Our idiotic administration at the time cared more about its appearance in public in the immediate future rather than caring about the long term effect of hiring a bad coach.
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Chris S 9 months ago
Don't be naive enough to think that the media uproar after he was fired from his last job is not playing into this decision a bit. Let him drown himself, and leave no doubt to the general public.
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Gil Johnson 9 months ago
Don't forget about Williams Rhoden at the New York Times. On September 15, '07, as UDub was 2-0 and ND was 0-2, he published a scathing column about Ty's firing by ND, calling Ty a "gem of a coach", calling his firing the product of "double standards and about the enduring unlevel playing field for African Americans in sports and beyond." He concluded with the statement "Make no mistake: I’ll be scoreboard watching this afternoon."
I wonder if Rhoden has been "scoreboard watching" as Ty has gone 2-14 since he penned that column. I wonder if he's "scoreboard watching" this trainwreck of a season in Seattle.
The real "double standard" is reflected in the knee jerk defense of Willingham. Where was Rhoden when Ty's predecessor at UW was fired after two years. Where was he when Teevans was fired after three years and Harris after two. Where was he when Ron Zook was fired in the middle of his third year. Based upon his subsequent performance at Illinois, if any of these coaches were treated "unfairly" it was plainly Zook, but I didn't see any columns in the NYT complaining about Florida's actions. The real double standard is manifested by those "analysts" like Rhoden and Wilbon and Saunders who continue to loudly proclaim Willingham should have "more time", not because he deserves it based on performance or merit, but simply because of his race. Wilbon delivered this message again only last week on PTI. Is that really the "level playing field" they want?
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Thomas Raleigh 9 months ago
Gil,
Good job on the research regarding Mr. Rhoden. The game we play in our house is for someone to read the headline of a New York Times sport's column and then guess the author. If it's "the blame game" style, you can bet Bill Rhoden wrote it. He is not known as the "Al Sharpton of sports writing" for nothing.
Tommy Boy
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Danny Herron 9 months ago
looked it up and read it but found no way to reply. I guess it's just another example of that rag saying what they want and not being responsible.
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Mike Martin 9 months ago
I'm not a Ty-hater. I'm not a Ty-apologist. I'm a Husky. I wanted to give him a chance, but at this point I feel that the season is gone the players seem to be going through the motions. Fire him now. Get a new group of coaches in there and save the recruiting. Ty has done a great job of root-canaling the problems that plagued the Huskies, but it's time to change.
I've held back on saying anything on the guy because I liked that he pissed off the media in Seattle which is always a good thing.
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John Berkowitz 9 months ago
A very spot on article.
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Jeff OBrien 9 months ago
ND turned to Willingham after George O'Leary was terminated for a false resume. As Alabama found out the hard way, locating the right head coach is not always a smooth trip. ND has finally landed the right head coach!
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Douglas Beckman 9 months ago
Where are all the Husky fans?
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Jeff Contizano 9 months ago
It's sad to see this happen to a team like Washington. It wasn't long ago when they were actually a good team.. but it's time to get Willingham out. Maybe some brave soul will step in and try and clean up the mess.
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Jamaal Foster 9 months ago
I'm a ND hater. I admit it and where it as a badge of honor. This is a good article though. As someone who doesn't really follow the recruting, this was some great information and insite on the Willingham firing. I'd disagree that a Top 25 recruiting class for UW is mediocre. you get a top 25 class and you arent' in the top 40 teams, that's pretty good.
C Weiss, if he's been recruiting that well they need to start looking convincing on that field really soon. Most folks, myself included, critcized ND on the basis of on-field products. CW and TWill had the same record and CW got a monster contract while CW got shown the door. That's what makes that recruiting info so valuable and why this is a great article.
I still hate ND, but I feel I have 1 less reason. Good Job
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ND 97 9 months ago
Hey ND hater, I'll probably be giving your reason to hate ND back by saying this, but did you at least get a college degree? Not be be grammar police, but where != wear and insite =! insight (the symbol means not equal to). You also state "...CW got a monster contract while CW got shown the door." I know you're talking about TW getting shown the door, but before you feel sorry for Ty, you should know the facts:
Top to bottom in the Pac-10
1. Pete Carroll, USC (signed through 2010)
Guaranteed salary: $2 million to $3 million a year (USC, a private school, does not release contract details)
2. Jeff Tedford, Cal (signed through 2009)
Guaranteed salary: $1.5 million
3. Tyrone Willingham, Washington (signed through 2009)
Guaranteed salary: $1.43 million
4. Dirk Koetter, Arizona State (signed through 2009)
Guaranteed salary: $950,000
5. Mike Riley, Oregon State (signed through 2009)
Guaranteed salary: $800,000
6. Mike Stoops, Arizona (signed through 2008; expected to receive contract extension through 2010 Thursday)
Guaranteed salary: $650,000
7. Karl Dorrell, UCLA (signed through 2010)
Guaranteed salary: $615,000
8T. Walt Harris, Stanford (signed through 2009)
Guaranteed salary: $600,000
8T. Mike Bellotti, Oregon (signed through 2010)
Guaranteed salary: $600,000
10. Bill Doba, Washington State (signed through 2009)
Guaranteed salary: $500,000
This is while he's still getting paid by ND too. Winless in 2008 and he's got the 3rd highest salary in the Pac-10. For someone who spends his time on the golf course (he did it at ND too) instead of recruiting, he's got the best job anyone could ask for.
With regards to on-field performance, keep in mind that Ty left the cupboard dry. Did you not read the article?? The current team is compromised mostly of Sophomores and Freshman. Anyone stepping into a coaching role at a team that Ty left will have the same problems. That's why the title is scorched earth, it's a military tactic of leaving nothing that can help your enemies behind by burning crops, taking food, etc.
Even if I wasn't an ND alum living in Seattle, I'd still feel bad for nearly any team that was foolish enough to hire him. Although him at U Mich, USC or Florida would make me giggle.
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Michael Collins 9 months ago
Using those salary figures and assuming Ty has been paid through 4 years, Washington has paid Willingham $520,000 per win (11 total so far).
If Washington fires him today (no further wins) and pays out his contract through five years, Ty would have been paid $650,000 per win.
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Ian Parks 9 months ago
Great article! I live in South Bend, and people around here love to say that ND should have kept TW anytime that ND has a bad game. It makes me sick. He won a FEW games that he shouldn't have and lost MOST of the games that should have been won. His gold game was most likely more consistent than ND was under his watch. Speaking of the golf game... THAT'S ALL HE DOES!!!!! That's why he's not out recruiting. Oh and he loves to be in a commercial every now-and-again. He's a high school coach with a college coaches salary. I'm just thankful that Weis made it through the aftermath of TW's poor recruiting and is months away from having a full roster of actual football players.
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Jamaal Foster 9 months ago
ND, maybe you missed my point due to all my grammatical errors. Actually, I'm an engineer (good with numbers, notoriously bad with spelling and grammar) so I don't mind about the grammar correction. The point of my post was to compliment you on the information on the recruiting erros that TWILL made. Every day fans, such as myself, may not have known the information about TWill leaving the "cupboard bare". Especially since the bare cupboard was covered by high quality skill position players on offense. Again, I compliment you on your article.
BTW, I don't feel sorry for TWill. NDs treatment of TWill was my question, not Washington's.
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john koctostin 9 months ago
No Prob Jamaal,
I'm an ND alum and don't see why anyone would hate a school that promotes so many good values. After all while football is a great game and is inspiring to other aspects of life, it is just a game. ND is so much more as are schools like Washington, Northwestern, Georgetown, etc. that promote excellence in all facets of life, and service to others. But you are entitled to your opinion. Visit ND during the week and stop by the Center for Social Concerns, or the Hesburg Center for Peace Studies, or just sit at the Grotto and think or pray, whatever you like. You'll let that hate go.
On the football front, this is not a surprise to anyone truly connected to the University. The recruiting and lack of belief in Notre Dame was what got Ty fired, not wins, losses and certainly not race.
And for those commenting on ESPN, they hold the exact monopoly that they accuse Notre Dame of having with NBC. In fact there is nothing stopping NBC from covering other teams and conferences, except that ESPN has every major conference other than CBS's SEC. Isn't it amazing how monopoly of the press can cause misrepresentation of the facts?
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Ed Bliler 9 months ago
Jamal...don't keep us in suspense. What lucky school gets your love?
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Danny Herron 9 months ago
Ty never did anything with those high quality skill position players except lose. I to am an Engineer. He had one good recruiting class after his first season using Bob Davies players. He never had 2 good seasons, just one. Ty is a horrible coach, with recruiting or with player development. He seems to enjoy golf and I hear he is pretty good. That is something going for him. He is a scumbag though, he allowed the BS race card to be used and did nothing to stop it. By the way, Notre Dame found out that he was inquiring about the Washington Job long before they canned him. I will go where he can until he wears out his welcome. The sad part is that he was given 3 chances at 3 good schools and failed at them all, it is affirmative action gone nutz.
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Jamaal Foster 9 months ago
I'm truely a University of Cincinnati fan. Of course, they have only recently become good enough for me to own up to it (w/o the QB problems we would've given OU a run for their money). Funny, to be bringing that up with ND fans (Demetrius Jones). I also root for OSU unless they play UC. I live in Atlanta now, and have chosen GTech over the Dawgs.
Besides that, I cheer for whoever is playing against ND, against Michigan, and against SEC Power.
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ND 97 9 months ago
No worries Jamaal...but it's good that there are articles out like this. Like you said, the average fan or someone that's not a Stanford, ND, or UW fan might not know all the details. They'll look to the record and see the numbers...on paper, TW & CW's records are pretty close at this point in time. The difference being is that when Ty took over from Bob Davie, he had a semi-decent team at least on the defensive side of the ball (Bob Davie was a defensive-minded coach and a good D-Coordinator, but poor head coach). In Ty's first year, he won games because of the defense. The offense and playcalling was horrendous! Through interceptions and fumbles returned for TD's, he racked up an 8-1 record and people were singing his praises. People that actually watched the game could see that it was all defense though...
Because Ty had a decent team, he put together good seasons (record wise) in his first years. As time went on, the Ty-effect took over and the team started degrading. The reason why CW has a similar record is because he's having to deal with the after effects of the TW era and we're slowing starting to recover. We should see dramatic improvement next year (and I know - ND fans say this EVERY year) with the added maturity and -I hope- to see them in the top-10 in 2 years when Jimmy Clausen is a senior and these highly-touted freshman are juniors.
I never felt sorry for Ty, his firing was the happiest day since CW's hiring. =) I just hope for UW's sake that they can find someone that can bring the program out of the abyss that Ty will leave it in.
PS- Ian...he's still making commercials in Seattle lol...what a joker.
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Danny Herron 9 months ago
"No worries Jamaal...but it's good that there are articles out like this. Like you said, the average fan or someone that's not a Stanford, ND, or UW fan might not know all the details. They'll look to the record and see the numbers...on paper, TW & CW's records are pretty close at this point in time."
yeah but those fans are the same type of people that have bought into the whole Obama character that the media has sold to the masses.
They accept what is being writin because it makes them feel good or out of their desire righteousness, even though it isn't. Gotta do your homework.
Go Irish, McCain and Milf
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s e 9 months ago
What hate on Jamaal?
He didn't leave the cupboard bare, but only the first row of the cupboard existed. There was nothing behind it. He left e recruiting time bomb that went off last year. We all predicted it, btw.
High School Coach with a College coach's salary is a perfect description.
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ND 97 9 months ago
It should also be worth mentioning that the few good recruits that we did have under Ty's regime probably would've come regardless. These are players that appreciate the tradition of Notre Dame football as well as the facilities and academics. Brady Quinn was recruited by Chinedum Ndukwe more than the coaching staff. The coaches recruited Ndukwe who was a highschool teammate of Brady Quinn's and told the coaches that they should look at him.
Similarly, with UW...good players like Jake Locker are in-state. They only have UW and WSU to choose from if they want to stay close to home. So even with being an inept recruiter, he still gets good in-state players to enroll because they want to be near home. It's a good thing WSU is equally bad right now and out in the middle of nowhere or else more of the in-state players might be in Pullman instead.
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Cal b 9 months ago
People: in 2004 during a meeting with Kevin White and Father Jenkins, and Ty Willingham. Father Jenkins and Kevin White asked for a commitment from Ty to recruit a higher quality of athlete for the football program. TY's answer was nothing. During the same conversation Ty Asked if he could interview for the UDUB position. After that meeting regardless of the out come of the USC Notre Dame game, Father Jenkins asked Kevin White to end the contract and pay Ty the agreed upon money. So basically Ty asked to leave Notre Dame not the other way around. This was on ESPN radio during an interview with Tim Brown.
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ND 97 9 months ago
That's his M.O. though...run a program into the ground and move on before it's so obvious that he's a lousy coach that he can't get hired somewhere else. All the while collecting a paycheck from the former program and the unfortunate sucker that hired him. It sounds like UW's athetlic director is going to keep him on through the end of the season, we'll see.
Ty is #1 on one ranking though - the Coaches Hot Seat (http://www.coacheshotseat.com/CoachesHotSeatRanking.htm)
If there's any doubt as to how clueless he is, here's a quote from Coach Ty after losing to Arizona 48-14:
"And despite another blowout loss that left UW at 0-3 in Pac-10 play, Willingham insisted afterward that he thinks a winning season—which would require winning the last seven games—and a bowl game is still possible.
“I still go along with that,” he said, when reminded that that was his preseason goal."
He makes me LOL sometimes...saying that he can run the table with these teams left:
Oregon State (Loss)
Notre Dame (Loss)
USC (LOL Loss)
Arizona State (Loss)
UCLA (Loss)
Washington State (tossup)
Cal (Loss)
I wonder if he'll coach another team after this year...should be interesting to see if there's any school that's as clueless as he is.
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Michael Collins 9 months ago
My take on how Willingham and Weis affected the offensive line at Notre Dame.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/37444-the-willingham-effect-offensive-line-recruiting-under-ty-and-charlie
Some stats - Williingham is 11-30 at UW - 27.5% (in his fourth year). The previous coach, Keith Gilbertson, was fired after two years for a winning percentage of 30.44%. The Huskies traditionally expect more.
- based on his salary, UW has paid Willingham $400,909 per win. Ty's salary, however, is only
3.97% of the football budget.
With the defection of a four star lineman, Washington now has a recruiting class of five, ranked by Rivals as tied for 90th in the nation.
They've lost to Washington State two out of Ty's three years.
Maybe he'll get a job at ESPN commenting.
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Jason Coffman 9 months ago
That is the perfect position for Ty. That's all ESPN needs is one more ND hater!
-Big Jay
South Bend
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Michael Collins 9 months ago
Fox Sports?
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ND 97 9 months ago
Nice Davie reference hehe, at this point I think UW would be in better hands with Boob coaching. =)
Great article on the Willingham effect on the OL Michael! It's all laid out there clearly for anyone in doubt. I'm just looking forward to JC's senior year when the team has had a chance to mature. Not since Holtz have we had a coach that gets it...it's about damn time!
As for UW, I hope they get a good coach after Ty. I'm not a fan despite living in Seattle, but historically UW has been one of two teams (the other being UCLA) that have challenged USC. College football will be more interesting when UW is back on top and I think UCLA is well on its way with the coaches they have in place now.
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Michael Collins 9 months ago
Thanks for the props on the article, ND.
The UW Rivals message board seems fired up with many discussing who the next coach will be. From this year's top 20 recruits from Washington state, UW has not yet landed any.
Frankly, I'd leave it up to UW on the direction of their program. They know where they are, what deficiencies there may be and what direction they want to go.
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F Web 9 months ago
There are thousands of high school coaches all across the nation that are better coaches than Willingham.
It's too bad he's killed another program. The Huskies deserve better.
At ND, his best achievement was he lowered his handicap. I wonder what that handicap is now, after another 4 years of golf while the rest of college coaches were out recruiting?
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LanceR 9 months ago
Washington should still be able to attract a good coach. ty must go now, forget john saunders and all that bs. ty is simply overrated and no good, regardless of skin tone. i'd have fired him after the stanford game, appoint an interim from the staff if he doesn't want to coast out the rest of the season, begin a search , a real good search for a coach..UNC canned Bunting a couple of years back and lured Butch davis to chapel hill..plenty of people like myself still remember washington being not just a pac 10 power, but a big time national player as well..some coach is gonna get the opportunity of a lifetime, it's not everyday a college coach gets a chance to return a school of washington's caliber back to greatness..somebody's gonna get that chance, and unlike Ty, it's gonna work for the Huskies this time..
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John Lorge 9 months ago
People keep saying "give him time, they are young" but good-young players still shine as freshman, with the exception of fogherson, I haven't seen any NFL glimmer from these freshman. A high ranked recruiting class doesn't mean crap. Go to rival or scout and look at their ranks for top hs players. half the top 10 for each position never pan out. FIRE TY... he will never be successful at UW, the Dog Father did it with style, Ty took the names off the jerseys and took away scholarships for the first time ever... FIRE TY
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Jamaal Foster 9 months ago
I'm truely a University of Cincinnati fan. Of course, they have only recently become good enough for me to own up to it (w/o the QB problems we would've given OU a run for their money). Funny, to be bringing that up with ND fans (Demetrius Jones). I also root for OSU unless they play UC. I live in Atlanta now, and have chosen GTech over the Dawgs.
Besides that, I cheer for whoever is playing against ND, against Michigan, and against SEC Power.
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ND 97 9 months ago
Being an ND alum here in Seattle, it's given me a pretty unique perspective. When Ty was first brought on here, I told the UW grads here that they're in big trouble lol. I told him the kinds of records that Ty set while at ND and his lack of effort in recruiting.
They said "he'll be good for the program, he's got class and integrity". I told them that those things don't win football games. That was probably 2-3 years ago... Nowadays, they're all calling for Ty's head lol. Hopefully they hire a good one this time, he's going to have his work cut out for him digging UW out of this hole. It'll be a while before they're able to get things going too, ND is just starting to recover from the Losingham era.
Jamaal - for me, I root for anyone playing against Michigan, USC, or Florida teams. It was a while ago since, but I remember the Bearcats almost beating OSU...that day I was a U of Cinncinati fan. =) How's Demetrius Jones working out for you guys?
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jim mcrt 9 months ago
not to mention a well known rumor that seems to be true, that while sanchez went on an official vist to nd, there was no nd official there to meet sanchez and his family at the airport...ty was working on his 7 iron that day
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Gerald Ball 9 months ago
Tyrone Willingham shows that affirmative action does not work in big time football.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/66705-tyrone-willingham-shows-why-affirmative-action-does-not-work-in-football
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Michael Collins 9 months ago
I remember leaving a game against Boston College in 2004. We had a big lead by halftime. BC made adjustments, but not ND. They effectively countered what the Irish had been successful at and began coming back. ND wasted time with decision-making and wasted timeouts getting the right personnel on the field. I saw missed tackles and stupid penalties - fundamental mistakes.
As BC was driving in the last minutes for a game-leading touchdown, all the BC fans yelled for their one good receiver to get the passes. He caught passes again and again without ND's defense adapting. The defensive game-planning was terrible - just trying to prevent a long ball without any idea of BC's tendencies. The BC fans were ecstatic, having given up at halftime.
After ND lost, the players hung their heads and I heard Willingham say what he always said after a loss - "we just have to execute", effectively blaming the players. I vowed never to go back for a game until Ty was fired.
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Joe Collins 9 months ago
Last year, Tytanic instituted a new post-practice policy - the mandatory consumption of fat-free chocolate milk.
I kid you not. Google it.
UW should have fired him after 3 years, but did not want to be tarred like ND was, after they fired him. Now, they have set the entire program back even further.
Remember, Tytanic was never an O.C. or D.C., which is the traditional stepping stone to a Head Coaching job. Yet, Stanford hired him anyway.
I wonder why?
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Jim Graham 9 months ago
Lane Kiffin is going to save UW football. Heard it here first.
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Andrew Nuschler 9 months ago
This is awesome.
Almost every single enthusiastic praise of this article comes from a ND fan, a Huskie fan, and/or Willingham hater (working from the bottom and omitting duplicates):
Joe
Michael
Jim
ND
John 1
F
Jason
Danny
Ian
John 2
Gil
Chris
Derek
Mike Irish
Joseph Palmisano
Steve
Dana
The one non-ND fan who complimented the article and said he had one less reason to hate ND (Jamaal) was attacked for making GRAMMATICAL ERRORS IN A COMMENT TO A RANDOM BLOG.
I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I'm saying it is hilarious to read you pat each other on the back as if you're having an reasoned, unbiased discussion. As if any of you had the possibility of disagreeing.
And just to save you the trouble. I graduated from Stanford and was there when Willingham led us to the Rose Bowl. If you want my opinion on the matter, here it is:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/67019-notre-dame-needs-to-switch-its-nickname-to-the-pink-domers
I know you guys won't read it b/c of the title, so I'll quote the part I'm sure you'd ignore anyway:
"In fact, I found Willingham to be condescending and myopic as well as hypocritically self-righteous. Enough of the football players were brutish meatheads, looking to get drunk and kick some ass (a genuinely unfair proposition considering the physical stature of most Stanford students).
And to be honest, the article's author makes a fantastic observation about Willingham's paucity of African-American coordinators. He points out that coordinator is to head coach as a senator or governor is to the President of the United States - not required but a damn good place to start. Consequently, to lob accusations of racism based on the lack of African-American head coaches while doing NOTHING at the most effective point to help solve the problem is both condescending and myopic (not to mention stupid and obviously hypocritical)."
Nor do I think race was a significant factor in his firing or the extending of Weis.
Not that it will matter.
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Michael Collins 9 months ago
Andrew,
I read your article, appreciate your comments, and urge you to reread some of ours.
Seems like you find a lot of people "condescending and myopic" as you mentioned twice.
What do you think of:
"I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I'm saying it is hilarious to read you pat each other on the back as if you're having an reasoned, unbiased discussion. As if any of you had the possibility of disagreeing.
And just to save you the trouble. I graduated from Stanford and was there when Willingham led us to the Rose Bowl. If you want my opinion on the matter, here it is:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/67019-notre-dame-needs-to-switch-its-nickname-to-the-pink-domers
I know you guys won't read it b/c of the title, so I'll quote the part I'm sure you'd ignore anyway:.."
Maybe that comment is not myopic....
From your article:
"Consider this. My father runs his own business. He is one of the most equitable, honest, and reasonable men I know. I am not exaggerating when I say his integrity has never been questioned by anyone who has had a substantive conversation with him.
And even he refuses to hire African-Americans because of their low fireability. As a small business owner, he just can't afford to have an employee who performs inadequately but cannot be fired because doing so would be even more costly. Neither he nor I nor any fair-minded person likes this reality, but it is the reality."
You would not be agreeing with the point of cfb360's article with respect to college football, would you?
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Andrew Nuschler 9 months ago
Michael,
I was pointing out that my reaction to Willingham when I dealt with him in college seemed to be pretty accurate since he still suffers from the same flaws, which is why I re-used the adjectives.
As for the rest of you comment, I'm not sure you know what myopic means. I said initially that I wasn't saying you guys were wrong i.e. that I wasn't disagreeing. And the point of that passage, as well as the compliments to the author, was to show that very fact.
So yes, I'm agreeing with him to the degree I said in the article. From your tone, you seem to think that's some sort of devastating admission.
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Michael Collins 9 months ago
Andrew,
Reread your comment that I quoted. Since I know what myopic means, do you think you were condescending - something you criticize in others?
Take the time to read our comments. Think of your father and imagine if he had let a costly employee who was not performing go and had been accused of racism.
It seemed to me like you agree with the article in substance, if not style.
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Andrew Nuschler 9 months ago
Michael,
First, thanks for taking the time to give me a fair shake by reading the article (as opposed to the author). Didn't say that initially.
That was exactly my point: that I agee with MOST of the substance and none of the style. As for my comment, that was definitely condescending. But the discussion had already proven worthy of condescension since it was unreasonably critical (TW's good recruits would have come anyway, all he does is pay golf, he's lazy, etc.).
The point is this - the man started 8-0, became the first Irish head coach to win 10 games in his first year, Weis had his greatest success so far using TW's recruits, and he was the first black head coach for ND (a big but obviously not the biggest CFB stage).
Despite these obvious positives, some of the guys on here act like he came, got his paycheck, set the place on fire, and then hit the links. It's just too extreme to be true for even the WORST coach.
But you're right. I painted too wide a swath and unfairly included you and some others. Those comments are reasonable and probably ones I would make if I were a fan of either team. My bad.
But Danny, cfb360, ND, and the like? I stand by the comment.
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cfb360 .com 9 months ago
Andrew, nowhere does the article state that "Notre Dame deserves praise." That's far from the point.
Rather the article is a defense of the baseless accusations aimed at Notre Dame by contrasting what Notre Dame has done with the hypocritical stance of Willingham. He jabs the rest of college football for not doing what he himself has the most power to control and hasn't done. In contrast, the "racist school" (Notre Dame) has acted decisively to create the stepping stones necessary to create minority coaching opportunities.
The intent of the article is to expose the underlying hypocrisy that Notre Dame (which hired an AA HC and two AA coordinators) has been called racist, while Willingham (who has had more direct power to influence pipeline) complains about racism, stokes the fires and does nothing. I find this hypocritical.
The intent is not to pat backs, but through comparison of the two, draw out the underlying hypocrisy.
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Andrew Nuschler 9 months ago
And if you read my article, you would see the enormous hypocrisy of what you are saying:
1. Willingham is a coach who deserves blame b/c he fails to hire black coordinators
2. Notre Dame is a school that deserves credit b/c it hires black coordinators
But Willingham worked for ND so how can he be blamed for the hiring practices while working for a school who must control the hiring practices in order for the entire comparison to hold up.
Unless you are saying that Willingham had the power to hire/fire coordinators but then ND withheld that power from Weis?
Look, I agree with your criticism of Willingham. I'm just saying you don't need to manipulate the facts to make a strong case. It would have been enough to point out his failure to recruit well and hire black coordinators while railing against the NCAA. The fact that you chose to go further shows that your biased and hamstrings your credibility.
Again
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shadow zone 9 months ago
This is great. With the utter defeat of Scott Hansen at hand (if you don't know who that is, then be grateful) the truth of Tyrone Willingham's idiocy is being spread. He is a joke and always has been. People are finally seeing through all of his hypocrisies. If anyone hires him again, I will feel very sorry for their fans. This guy doesn't deserve to be so much as the waterboy.
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cfb360 .com 9 months ago
Andrew -- Lose the dramatics, it kills your credibility. "you will see the enormous hypocrisy." Easy drama queen.
I can't read your article, it's a rambling emotional rant that lacks coherency. There are coherent moments in there, but it needs a major cleanup.
There is no distortion and no hypocrisy (that anyone but you sees) in this argument. Here's the logic trail:
Willingham and head coaches have the discretion to hire and fire coordinators.
Universities do it through their head coaches, therefore have less power. It's almost always the head coaches decision.
Fact: Willingham has had more discretionary power to hire minorities for coordinator roles and didn't.
Fact: Notre Dame, which as a university has less, did.
Conclusion:
To call ND racist is hypocritical if you don't do the same to Willingham.
For Willingham to play the race card is hypocritical.
You're an emotional wreck with this... you uncorked a 1000 word rant. Take a day off an revisit. Realize that you've now responded to the wrong article twice now. The article on this page is about Willingham's recruiting.
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Andrew Nuschler 9 months ago
Like I said, "not that it will matter."
And you wrote both articles.
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Michael Collins 9 months ago
Here's a couple of other articles to add to the discussion:
The Rock Report from 5 months ago -- http://bleacherreport.com/articles/24128-notre-dame-football-ty-willingham-and-racial-bias
ND Nation's comparison of Weis and Willingham, including work habits http://www.ndnation.com/geetar/archive/2006_09_01_archive.html
Outside of stats, at least three of ND's first 8 games in 2002 could have been losses - Purdue, Michigan, and Michigan State - last second wins or preserving small leads in close games.
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jannie ruffin 7 months ago
haters
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