Here's something to chew on, folks: Brett Favre's record-breaking season this year only proves that Dan Marino is still the greatest quarterback to ever play the game.
You read that correctly, so just follow along with me on this.
Before Marino's records started to fall to Peyton Manning and Brett Favre, it was so simple to call Marino the greatest QB of all time. After all, he had every major passing record locked up. The statistics were there in black and white, and they were indisputable.
Jim Brown, perhaps the greatest running back ever, once remarked, "I hold more than a dozen records and as a result have been turned into a statistic."
Unfortunately, Marino has suffered a similar fate. In the eyes of many people, Marino is little more than his numbers, and now that those have been surpassed, he is no longer relevant.
This reaction is understandable to a certain degree. In his book "From Ritual to Record," Allen Guttmann lays out the seven defining characteristics of modern sports, with the sixth being quantification. He says that "modern sports are characterized by the almost inevitable tendency to transform every athletic feat into one that can be quantified and measured...Despite the elegant rhetoric about playing the game rather than thinking about the numbers, the spectator's attention becomes fixed in a relentless search for quantification."
Now, just so you know - I am a stat guy. I loved the advent of sabermetric analysis in baseball, and I think it's crucial to have an objective way of rating individual players. However, it should never be lost on people that the more subjective means of analyzing players are just as important to the overall rating.
This was never more apparent to me than after the Green Bay Packers season ended with a loss to the Giants and after hearing an incredibly simple but powerful statement by a Hall of Fame QB.
Fran Tarkenton recently called into the Mike and Mike radio show on ESPN, to talk about the Conference Championship games. When asked about Brett Favre's performance, he said bluntly that no great quarterback makes both the kind and number of foolish plays that Favre does.
I couldn't agree more.
And that is what makes his passing of Marino in the record books so frustrating. Because when it really comes down to it, Favre's ability to play the QB position cannot hold a candle to Marino's abilities.
Seeing Marino's records fall has forced me to set aside statistics and look directly to the level of play. I'm talking about a player's pure fundamental ability to play the quarterback position. And suddenly, once the records are set aside, it becomes much easier to defend Marino's title as greatest of all time. Marino had The Release. He had the most impeccable timing, the cannon arm, and the ability to slice up a defense like a block of cheese.
Ironically, many of those same people who dismiss Marino based on his records falling, continue to call him the greatest "pure passer" to ever play, based on those very attributes I just named. I am absolutely flabbergasted that someone could differentiate between the best pure passer and the best quarterback. Aside from making forward passes, the only other areas of consideration that come into play when critiquing a QB are his decision-making abilities and his leadership - both areas that Marino excelled in. Sure, some QBs are great at running the ball as well, but that is not a traditional duty of the position. And while Marino was as dangerous as a slumbering sloth when running downfield, he had some of the best in-pocket movement I've ever witnessed.
The major problem with this subjective way of analyzing a player is that it loses strength over time as fewer and fewer people can remember or care to find out exactly how a certain player actually played the game. Statistics are a much more widely available resource, and numbers are easier to compare than scouting reports.
Normal statistics also fail to point out important differences in the competitive conditions of players' situations.
I can think of no better way to illustrate this point than to show how current players like Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady have all played their entire careers (or a majority of them) during a period when offensive production has exploded as a result of changing philosophies and altered rules. (As a note, Dan Marino retired after the 1999 season. Brett Favre was drafted in 1991, but did not see regular playing time until his sophomore season.)
In 1994, the pass interference rules were changed by the league in order to do away with intentional contact by a defender against a receiver downfield. According to John Clayton, after the 1994 rule change, passing yardage went up 26 yards per game to 427.2 yards - the second highest total in the modern era. The number of completions and attempts rose and so did the number of passing touchdowns. Favre has played 14 of his 17 seasons post-rule change; Marino only played the final 6 of his 17 seasons in that altered environment.
Then, following the 2003 playoffs, the NFL again looked into its pass interference rules in order to further open up offensive scoring. Clayton again predicted the same kind of statistical results that occurred after the 1994 rule change, and he was proven right. From 2002-03, only one team (Oakland) threw for more than 4,500 yards. In 2004, five teams (Favre's Packers being one) accomplished the feat.
For more information on these rule changes, and their statistical results, see these sites:
Football Outsiders report, John Clayton report
With that historical context in place, it should be quite easy to see that Favre's accomplishments do not add up to Marino's. In fact, in Favre's four seasons from 2004-07 (post-rule change) he posted two seasons with 4,000+ passing yards. In his 13 previous seasons, he had only 3 such seasons.
In a recent article on ESPN.com, Jeffri Chadiha wrote about the effect of the changes to the illegal contact rule and commented that, "If Marino had that advantage going for him, nobody would've ever matched the season he produced 24 years ago."
While I hope to have shown you how such counting statistics as TDs or passing yards can be deceiving in some instances, there are certain rate states which can be helpful when comparing players.
The following are career stats:
| QB Rating | INT% | TD% | Sck% | Y/A | Y/C | |
| Dan Marino | 86.4 | 3.0 | 5.0 | 3.1 | 7.3 | 12.4 |
| Brett Favre | 85.7 | 3.3 | 5.0 | 4.8 | 7.0 | 11.5 |
Getting away from QB stats now, I want to address the popularly held notion that quarterbacks, apart from all other positions, are judged based on the number of Super Bowls won. That is just patently ridiculous. Yes, the QB is the single most important position on a football team, but he is indeed part of a team - a team that employs three distinct and equally critical phases.
According to that logic, Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Jim McMahon, and Brad Johnson are all better than Marino. Well, those five examples prove how absurd that "logic" really is.
Teams are judged on winning; individuals are not. Throw the number of rings a guy has out the window when judging quarterbacks - it's that simple.
Rather than rings, I think Steve Grogan pointed to an excellent way of determining who the greatest QB of all time is. He recently said that the truly great quarterbacks are the ones who succeed in spite of their surrounding cast. He went on to say that he knew of no other QB who did more with less than Dan Marino.
This argument has been made several times before, but I think it is useful to explore it in terms of the Marino/Favre parameters.
As far as defense goes, Favre consistently benefited from having better defenses protect his leads and get him the ball back. In Favre's 16 seasons as a starter, his defenses have averaged about 12th in the league in scoring defense. Marino's averaged 15th in the league. Also remember that for a majority of Favre's career there were more than 30 teams in the league, while for a majority of Marino's career there were only 28 teams in the league, making his defense's average rank of 15 a bottom-half unit.
In Favre's career, he has benefited from 7 top-10 scoring defenses and a dozen top-15 defenses. Marino had only 5 top-10 and 7 top-15 scoring defenses.
The importance of a running game also cannot be overlooked when judging a QB. If a team is no threat to run the ball, the opposing defense can drop more people into coverage to protect against the pass. Having an effective running game is a QBs best friend.
Well, during Marino's career, the Miami ground game was the prime example of inconsistency. The Dolphins had ten different leading rushers over Marino's 17 year career. Marino had only a single season with a running back who gained over 1,000 yards. Just one season!
In comparison, Favre has benefited from three separate 1,000 yard rushers, who put up a combined nine 1,000+ yard seasons. From 1999-2004, Green Bay had six consecutive years with a 1,000+ yard rusher.
Essentially, I am arguing for the ranking criteria of the greatest QBs of all time to include both statistical achievements and contextual achievements and to throw out team achievements like Championships.
One need only to look at Favre's most recent game against the Giants, in which he played horribly and essentially threw the game away for his team by making the kind of stupid mistakes that have become synonymous with his style of play. Those were not isolated incidents. That is how Favre plays the game. As Tarkenton said, great QBs simply do not play like that.
Marino may not hold the records any longer, but the way he played the game will never change - and that level of quarterback play remains far and away the best this game has ever seen.
Check out Samuel's site Phinaticism for all your Dolphins news and commentary.
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5 months ago
Huh?
from 5 months ago
This article would hold some ground if Marino's numbers also went up after the 1994 change. He only had 1 season in which he threw more than 4,000 yards and 30 TDs after the 1994 change. If the game was impacted that much wouldn't Marino's numbers have also gone up? They didn't.
from 5 months ago
Marino suffered was a series of injuries that affected his play. He also did not have the privilege of playing with any good teams.
Chris, you fail again.
5 months ago
In Marino's last game. at 38 same age as Favre. A big playoff game, he threw for 95 yards two INT's and a 44% completion rate. Not exactly great numbers for the greatest of all time. is it? Not to mention they lost 62-7. So I don't know how you can bash Favre so much.
from 5 months ago
Well, said Matt.
While I do disagree with the author's conclusion that Marino is better than Favre, I do agree that a Superbowl championship should not be an automatic qualifier for 'best ever'.
In addition to games played, the author also overlooked the fact that Favre had only one true premier receiver during his career and that was Sterling Sharpe, who he had for only 3 years.
from 5 months ago
Marino was playing with a pinched nerve in his throwing shoulder; a knee brace; a special boot for his heel that suffered the torn achiles; and no one on offence other that O.J McDuffie that anyone of you guys could name off the top of your head. BTW - the only reason that the Dolphins even played in that game was because of a Marino engineered comeback win the week before in Seattle.
Was Brett hurt when he tossed up that hot potato in the Red Zone? Or when he threw that "bullet" that was picked off that lead to the end of the Packer's playoffs?
That game against the Giant's is a microcosm of Brett's career: When the running game fails, and when the screen pass is not working, leave the game in Brett's hands and you'll lose many more than you'll win.
Oh ya, and just in case you Brett fans forgot about how the Pack last left the playoffs --- a Brett pick against the Eagle! The guy is simply a joke!
5 months ago
I would argue that Favre stretched the field with passing and made his running backs better. Look at every Packers running back during the Favre era, not one has had a better season after he left the packers.
5 months ago
Think about these numbers though, even if your not looking at stats per say, but Marino put up those numbers playing a full 17 seasons. Even if Favre has played 17 seasons after this season, he past Marino's numbers in 16 seasons as a starter, and didn't even play until the 4th or 5th game of his sophmore season. Technically, Favre past Marino's numbers in 1 1/4 or 1 5/16 seasons ahead of Marino as a starter.
from 5 months ago
Technically, you are an idiot. Look at games played.... 87 or 88 was strike shortened; 93 Marino played 5 games because of injury; and later in the 90's he missed many games. The only record Favre broke ahead of Marino was the completions....everything else took him more games. Make sure you know your shit before you post! Favre is a joke of a QB - close your eyes and through up the ball! BTW - check out the interceptions! Favre got way more in less games started!
from 5 months ago
Don't you think saying Favre is a joke of QB is taking it too far. It seems the one that doesn't know his #$%^ is you. Marino is not that far behind Favre in INT. Favre has about 30 more INTs but threw 400 more passes than Marino did. Favre has a 3.2% career INT ratio while Marino has a 3.0% INT ratio. Unless Marino had a Montana-like 2.5% INT don't give him more credit than Favre in this regard. Favre was statistically a more accurate passer at 61.4% with Marino at 59.4%. So if anything you could say "Favre is no better than Marino". There is no way you can say that Favre is a joke when he had an almost identical career to Marino. You need to go back to school and learn basic mathematics.
from 5 months ago
Regarding 61.4% vs. Marino's 59.4%, I believe that you are referring to completion percentage. The last time I checked, completion percentage is not analogous to accuracy. When you consider how often Favre has thrown high percentage passes (screen passes) your comparison regarding completion percentage leaves much to be desired.
5 months ago
Conveniently leaving out the most important star - wins - undermines any credibility to this argument. The job of any player, including the QB, is to lead his team to wins. No QB in history has done that better than Favre.
from 5 months ago
He played more games moron.
from 5 months ago
Well Favre certainly played 15 more games than Marino but he also has 13 more wins than Marino at this point in time. Just admit, you didn't do very much research on this piece. To say Favre is a joke compared to Marino is just ridiculous. Their career stats are both very impressive and I would say they are both GREAT QBs.
from 5 months ago
Research? Favre played more games and has more wins - your research speaks for itself. When I posted this comment originally, I was responding to an obviously gross overstatement by the anonymous author.
from 3 months ago
I'm not sure how you can knock a guy for playing more games. That's just toughness, which is something Favre has on every other quarterback that has ever played the game.
5 months ago
Brady threw for 3 interceptions playing horribly and his team still won. Is Brady not a great quarterback? Favre's team was not good enough to overcome his two interceptions. Face it, Favre is so important to his team (the real mvp) that if he plays less than perfect they typically lose. This was a team loss and to blame it only on Favre is idiotic. Favre has won more with subpar teams than anyone in history. How many hall of fame former players are included on his previous team rosters. Reggie White? Who else? Face it, the guy has done more than any other quarterback with the poor teams and coaches he has had.
5 months ago
Samuel LeFavor, you are clearly a Dolphins fan, who still cant get out of the past, the game has changed that i agree with, but coming from a neutral NFL fan living in the UK, having seen both quarterbacks play, Favre is now currently the man, as i have no doubt it will be someone else sometime soon.
Favre's records speak for themselves, as do Marino's and when it is all said and done, and the dust has settled, that is all that will remain.
5 months ago
Clayton and Duper....Duh. Name one receiver that Favre has played with that is better than those two. And he had them at the same time. Ryan Grant gained 1000 yards (almost) in 10 or 11 games, and nobody thinks he is a long term solution to the running game. No, the best way to determine who is better is to figure out who did more with less, and who made the players around him better. Clearly Favre's play has made the runners and receivers around him appear to be better than they really are.
from 5 months ago
What the hell do you know about Clayton and Duper? How long did they play with Marino - and where did they go after? Do some research and you'll soon realize that Marino made there careers. Also note: How many Hall of Famers did Dan Marino play with? Right.
from 5 months ago
So why didn't you answer the question? Who have the Packers had at WRs? The implication that Favre has had standout teams and Marino hasn't for the reason Favre has been more successful is hogwash. Guess what Ryan Grant hasn't been around for 16 years. Donald Driver has been the best WR that Favre has played with for a steady amount of time. He definitely isn't near being one of the best in the NFL. Most people don't even know who he is.
from 5 months ago
Why have you not answered my question? Maybe for the same reason? I was merely pointing out (as you are trying to do) that Marino's receiving core was not what people think. By throwing out names like "Clayton" and "Duper" without knowing anything about them, to support an argument that Marino played with outstanding receivers, is completely flawed. My point was simple: do some research on Clayton and Duper and then start yaping.
from 5 months ago
BTW, Chris, take a look at my post below... maybe you forgot about Sterling Sharpe.
5 months ago
Favre is a gunslinger. He is not a finesse QB like Marino was. Only Favre can make some of the plays that he has made. Sure, he has the INT record. He takes chances. He always thinks he can make a play and never quits. Thats why he's so much fun to watch. That's why he doesnt fit in with finesse QB's like Marino or Brady. He is his own man with his own style, yet EVERYONE has something in common with him. Thats why Favre is better. Not only is he the best QB to ever play, he's probably the best player to ever play in the NFL. He is certainly the toughest (270-some starts in a row). Hes the Rocky Balboa of the NFL.
Marino was great, don't get me wrong, however, for now, Favre is the best. Records are meant to be broken. Don't be so sour about it, even though Brett probably cut through your favrorite team like a block of cheese time and time again.
Favre for President 2008
P.S. Hey one last thing...how many MVP's does Marino have? 1. Last I checked, Favre has 3...in a row. A stat guy should appreciate those numbers.
5 months ago
Favre wins three stats:
MVP's
Career Wins
Superbowls
Oh yeah.... and most of the other one's too!
5 months ago
A very strange article. Why are you comparing Marino to Favre? Brady has 3 Super Bowls, is about to win his 4th, has an MVP, Super Bowl MVP. You should be trying to make the argument that Marino is as good as Brady (which he is not, he is actually a loser).
from 5 months ago
Ya sure. How many games did Marino have the benefit of winning despite his poor play? Brady sucked in the conference final and the Patriots still won. Have a looked at the history books - when Marino played poorly = Dolphins lost. When Marino played great = Dolphins usually won. Marino was the whole team - Brady is a cog in a wheel. You can take Brady off the field this week in the SB and the Patriots would still be favored and would still win.
from 5 months ago
Couldn't you say the same thing about Favre in 90% of the seasons he has been with the Packers. When Favre does well the Packers do well. When he doesn't they don't.
from 5 months ago
Couldn't you say the same thing about Favre in 90% of the seasons he has been with the Packers. When Favre does well the Packers do well. When he doesn't they don't.
from 5 months ago
I think I can sum this up in a few words: SUPER BOWL XXXI MVP = Desmond Howard.
How poorly does a QB have to play for a kick returner to win SB MVP?
from 5 months ago
He did throw for 292 yds 2 TDs and 1 INT. Is that poor play to you? Please do some research before you post. The question should be reversed. How good does a kickoff/punt returner have to be to win Super Bowl MVP. Howard had a Super Bowl record 244 return yards on kickoffs and punts including a 99 yd kickoff return for a TD. It wasn't that Favre played poorly it was that Howard was phenomonal with an unprecedented return performance. That is why he was the first special teams player to win a Super Bowl MVP, because there has never been that kind of performance from a special teams player. Favre still is the only player to have won 3 MVPs and he did it in 3 consecutive seasons.
from 5 months ago
He did throw for 292 yds 2 TDs and 1 INT. Is that poor play to you? Please do some research before you post. The question should be reversed. How good does a kickoff/punt returner have to be to win Super Bowl MVP. Howard had a Super Bowl record 244 return yards on kickoffs and punts including a 99 yd kickoff return for a TD. It wasn't that Favre played poorly it was that Howard was phenomonal with an unprecedented return performance. That is why he was the first special teams player to win a Super Bowl MVP, because there has never been that kind of performance from a special teams player. Favre still is the only player to have won 3 MVPs and he did it in 3 consecutive seasons.
from 5 months ago
I agree... the unprecedented return performance is what won the game. Not Favre.
from 5 months ago
The Packers did have 35 points and Brett was directly responsible for 14 of those points. Howard was directly responsible for 7. You said Favre played poorly, which he didn't. That was my point.
from 5 months ago
Define directly?
And...I never said "Favre played poorly" - stop putting words in my mouth.
from 5 months ago
I copied your response and pasted it below. Notice the word poorly in there. By directly I mean that Favre threw 2 TD passes resulting in 14 points for the Packers.
You wrote the following:
I think I can sum this up in a few words: SUPER BOWL XXXI MVP = Desmond Howard.
How poorly does a QB have to play for a kick returner to win SB MVP?
from 5 months ago
Right... I said "how poorly does a QB have to play for a kick returner to win a SB MVP"... that is not quite the same as saying that "Favre played poorly"....nonetheless, pretend that that is what I said. Can you seriously determine how good Favre played based on his passing stats from that game? Do the stats tell you about how many passes where: underthrown, overthrown, based on poor decisions, made to a receiver that was covered vs. one that was not? (NOTE: I did not say that this did happen in that game - so don't put words in my mouth later).
It is interesting how you left out his completions vs. attempts (again, I don't care about that stat, and I am not saying that he had a poor completion percentage that game).
The point is this: The QB of the winning team is the default SB MVP, and someone has to do much more than a QB, to affect the outcome of a game, to be given the MVP. So in that game I am suggesting that Favre was outdone by Howard and was THE REASON THAT YOUR PACKERS WON! Thus, Favre had yet another weapon that Marino never had, which ultimately led to Brett's only SB.
5 months ago
All you Favre lovers must never have seen Marino play. Marino was the Dolphins; there was simply no one else on any of those Dolphin teams that people feared. Everyone new that Marino would be in shotgun with no running game (like many other QBs had), no play action passes (alla Manning), no screen passess (alla Favre). The bottom line is this: If Marino had won a Super Bowl, there would be no argument: Marino would simply be the greatest. The fact that he is considered among the greatest (if not the greatest) without winning a SB is quite powerful stuff. Take a look at NFL films' ranking of the greatest QBs of all time. At #3 (behind Montana & Unitas) Marino is the only guy in the top 10 who doesn't have a SB. Think about that --- for all you guys who never seen Marino through the ball, you have no idea what you missed. The guy is a legend - "there just have not been others like him" (quote by Bill Walsh - the guy who spent many days watching Montana).
from 5 months ago
So who has been a mainstay of the Packers that has been feared other Favre? I have seen Marino throw the ball but the stats are the stats. Marino and Favre had almost identical careers and were undoubtedly some of the best QBs to ever play the game. Marino has a lot of respect from me. Likewise you should have respect for Brett Favre.
from 5 months ago
Let's try....Reggie White? Ya, he may have been feared.
from 5 months ago
By the way, the lack of respect for Brett Favre that you have extrapolated from my previous comments is likely due to the fact that I was forced to make arguments in response to the nonsense that was posted by others earlier.
The article written above is band on. The research is factually accurate, the methodology is sound, and the conclusion is persuasive. The response by Brett fans was unreasonable and needed someone like myself to fire some bullets.
from 5 months ago
I said mainstay. He did play in Green Bay for 5 years but I wouldn't call him a franchise player. The problem I have is you saying Favre is a joke of a QB, while praising Marino, when his stats are almost identical to Marino's. That is completely incoherent.
The stats that were posted in the article aren't the entire gamut of stats that a QB can be judged on. Sure the stats selected were better than Favre's but you can't say they were dramatically better. Wow Marino has a .7 better QB rating. Big deal. He has a .3 lower INT%. Big deal. Favre still threw for more TDs, and yards than Marino did. Favre was a more accurate passer than Marino. The sack%, Y/A and Y/C aren't an accurate measure of the QB themselves. They have more to do with the offensive line, WRs and style of offense. Conclusion; Marino and Favre were GREAT QBs. Its hard to say which was better.
from 5 months ago
Hey Chris, how about Sterling Sharpe? Heard of him?
Just in case:
Sharpe was the first round draft pick of the Packers in 1988 and had an immediate impact on the team. In his rookie season he started all sixteen games and caught 55 passes. His sophomore season he led the league with 90 receptions and was the first of the Packers to do so since Don Hutson in 1945 and broke Hutson's record of receptions and receiving yards in a season.
A few years later, in 1992, Sharpe and the new quarterback, Brett Favre, teamed up to become one of the top passing tandems in the league. In the final game of that season he and Favre hooked up for Sharpe's 107th reception of the season which broke the NFL's single-season receptions record, set by Art Monk in 1984. That season, Sharpe became one of only three players in NFL history to win the "Triple Crown" at the receiver position: leading the league in receiving yards, receiving touchdowns, and receptions. Jerry Rice (1990) and Steve Smith are the only other players to accomplish this feat. In the 1993 season Sharpe subsequently broke his own record, with 112 receptions; this also made him the first player to have consecutive seasons catching more than 100 passes. In 1994, his 18 touchdown receptions were the second most in league history at the time, behind only Jerry Rice's 22 in 1987.
from 5 months ago
Yes and unfortunately Sharpe's career was cut tragically short a couple of years after playing with Favre. Your point is? Its not like Montana who had Jerry Rice by his side the whole time with the 49ers. Favre made many GB WRs(obviously not Sharpe, who was great to being with) look great. After they left Green Bay they didn't do much. Kind of like what you said about Marino. They look great taking passes from either Favre or Marino but disappoint with other teams. Keep in mind I'm not saying Favre was better than Marino only responding to your notion that Favre is a joke and Marino was the best. I don't think either were better than Montana but both are Top 5 QBs.
from 5 months ago
Chris, again, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said "Marino was the best". Any suggestion of such was not overt; you are reading into my comments too much.
But certainly, Favre is NOT a top 5 QB. THE MAN IS A JOKE!
He has poor mechanics, he is a drama queen, and he made (and will continue to make) poor decisions that WILL COST HIS TEAM. That we know for sure. How much value he adds to the QB position for the Packers is unknown and cannot be known conclusively, but what is certain is how often he throws poor passes, off his back foot, into triple coverage, at critical times in a game, and how often those passes COST his team.
For anyone to say that Brett Favre is (was) a better QB than Dan Marino is absurd. Sure, Dan may not be the greatest, but he is now, and will be forever, amoungst the greatest.
5 months ago
I agree that Marino was better than Favre. The biggest problem that Marino faced was that the Dolphins never established a running game, never acquired a running back to take the pressure of Marino.
I fault Shula for that. He never wanted to take the ball out of Marino's hands. I credit Peyton and the Colts for establishing a running game to compliment Peyton's passing. That's why the Colts won last year.
Hard to determine the greatest qb of all time, though.
from 5 months ago
So what made Marino better than Favre in your opinion? Favre has more wins, yards, and TDs than Marino and both have almost identical INT/att ratios. So your interception theory doesn't hold any ground here. Doesn't make much sense to me. But then again to you it seems that even mediocre QBs are better than Favre. Do you just not like Favre personally? The Packers didn't have an effective running back until 2001 with Ahman Green but at that time the Packers had a mediocre at best defense. In the 9 years leading up to the acquisition of Ahman Green the Packers only had three 1,000 seasons from their RBs. There goes that theory.
5 months ago
Where did all you Brett Favre fans go? No posts in quite some time?
5 months ago
Hey Joe,
Why don't you go suck a brat. Maybe if you post enough you can get Marino's attention and a little locker room time with him.
And by the way, people hate Favre the way others hate Brady and others hate Payton Manning - because of overexposure or jealousy.
5 months ago
That's all you have to say? Take a cheap shot? Way to go Mike. Maybe if I get some locker room time with Dan I'll let you know - seeing as how its on your mind.
5 months ago
Here it is; since Brett Favre became the starting QB in 1992, the Packers have won more games than any other team in the NFL during this 16 year period. Favre has been the most consistent TD throwing machine the NFL has ever seen. He averaged 35 TDs a season for 5 consecutive years. Marino never did that. I hate all these Favre bashing threads. The guy breaks every single passing record and people just look for tiny little micro-examples to bash him. Yes Favre has blown some games for his team. So has every other QB. To me Montana will always be the best but Favre will be second until somebody else comes along with his talent.
The thing about Favre is that he can take mediocre teams and lead them to the playoffs proven by the fact that he took the Packers to the playoffs 11 out of his 16 seasons. He took good teams and made them great. Favre essentially took a bunch of 1-2 year players to the NFC Championship and came closer than both the undefeated Patriots and No1 seeded Cowboys to beating this year's Super Bowl champs. Favre and the Packers took the Giants to OT. Yes Favre threw a game-chaning interception but how often do you see a defense as ferocious as the Giants had.
Case closed.
5 months ago
Well, well well, up to this point, I was really beginning to sympathize with you, but once again as a Favre fan you have selectively chosen your statistics and twisted their value into something that they are simply not.
As far as the "touchdown machine" argument, here are some Marino stats have you have conveniently overlooked:
1983 = 20Td's in 11 games (9 games as the starter)
1984 = 48Td's in 16 games
1985 = 30Td's in 16 games
1986 = 44Td's in 16 games
1987 = 26 Td's in 12 games (strike shortened)
Total = 168 Td's in 71 games = 33.6 Td's average over a 5 year period BUT WAIT... in two of those seasons, Marino missed 9 games, so let's take that into consideration (or maybe we shouldn't? At least that is what you Favre fans would do)
But here it is:
168/71 = 2.36 per game (and I've even rounded down)
THEN... 2.36 x 80 (80 being the total games over a five year stretch) = 188.8
THEN... take 188 (notice I've also taken .8 Td's away) and divide by 5 (the number of seasons that you have chosen to use for the average) and you get ==== 37.6 Td average for Marino over a 5 year stretch (not to mention that I included 11 games for his first season of which he only started 9).
Alas, a 37.6 Td average is more than Favre's 35 (of which I am relying on your research), but of course, you Favre fans would much rather look at seasons and disregard the actual games played... that way you can artificially carve out Favre as the the "Td machine".
It appears that you, sir, should return to school for some basic mathematics (as per your comment to me above).
As far as your other comments go, I'm not going to bother to look into the Pack's success since 92, because in reality, they probably would have won a few more if Favre was not so reckless.
And as far as being a "record breaker", chew on this:
Marino reached the 100, 200, 300, 400, and 420 Td plateau faster than Favre.
Marino reached the 10000, 20000, 30000, 40000, 50000, 60000, and 61361 plateau faster than Favre.
So, to say that Favre is the "record breaker" is to completely disregard the FACTS that the article above has so eloquently stated (which is what started this debate --- Favre fans disregarding facts).
Yes, Favre holds the all-time records now, but he played more games to get them. He played in a pass friendly era with better teams, WITHOUT an injury serious enough to force him to miss a game, and with reckless abandonement (as a passer) that NO QB COACH would ever point to as the way to play the position.
And as far as the rest of your comment goes.... opinion is nice, but it's just that.
Case Reopened, or closed?
from 5 months ago
Just keep in mind that Marino has also had some terrible games in the playoffs. Or are you just ignoring that? My problem with your comments is that Favre and Marino have almost identical career stats yet you are saying that Favre is a joke and that Marino is good. Your right though opinion is just that opinion. Your entitled to yours and I'm entitled to mine. My opinion. Favre and Marino were GREAT QBs that are worthy of respect.
from 5 months ago
The stats that started this whole debate were also selectively chosen. The stats that I used are legitimate and not just exaggerated because I'm a Packers fan. Yes I'm a Packers fan who hails from Denver so I also have a tremendous amount of respect for John Elway. I feel that Elway, Favre, and Marino were all great QBs that are among the greatest ever. I still think Montana was the best. I am not disrespecting Marino though, like you did Favre by calling him a joke. Like I said, that is just simply statistically incoherent.
from 5 months ago
Although I do not really want to get into this, I think I must. Take a look at the AVERAGE POINTS scored against a Marino led playoff team (I believe it is just over 30 points). That is a tremendous amount of points for "Dan Marino and the Dolphins" to have had to overcome.
The guy was simply the only chance the Dolphins had, for all his years in Miami, to win. Point me to a game where Marino absolutely sucked but the Dolphins still won (regular season or playoffs)? It did not happen.
Marino is a legend.
5 months ago
Why are you taking this so offensively? I'm merely challenging your notion that Favre "is a joke" while Marino is great. I said before that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Dan Marino. Like I said before their stats are very similar and I have to say its a tough call as to which was better. How much longer did it take Favre to reach Marino's numbers? A few games. Big deal. Its not like it took Favre 3 complete seasons longer to surpass Marino. At this point Favre has played 15 games more than Marino. All of those records fell in the middle of the season. They are both GREAT QBs.
Why does it matter if Favre played in a pass-happy era. All that matters is that Marino played on a pass-happy team. Which the Dolphins undoubtedly were in the Marino era. Ok so no matter how much we argue, the only thing we can determine is that Favre and Marino were great QBs that both had great careers. Did I ever say Marino was not a GREAT QB? No. Did I ever disrespect Marino like you did Favre? No. All I'm calling you on is your statement that Favre "is a joke" and Marino is great. If Favre is a joke, then so is Marino because they had almost identical career stats.
5 months ago
Chris,
Seriously, what are you saying. Dan Marino threw the ball better, with more grace, than any other QB in history. His numbers are incredible when you compare him to players IN HIS ERA. Take a look at Elway, Montana etc.
I am not saying that Dan is the greatest QB and that Favre is the worst...as I said before, you have extrapolated my disregard for Favre from the comments that I posted in response to others who said ridiculous things. Since then, I have had to respond to your MISLEADING statements regarding the statistics.
Ya sure, Favre broke Dan's records after playing a few or more games than Marino, but that is only part of the point; he did it virtually injury free, with a BETTER running game, in a pass happy era, on better teams, etc. etc.... How can you not see that?
Think about it buddy... how much easier is it to defend against I guy like Marino: a statue in the pocket because of his bad knees, with no running game.... than against I guy like Favre: Running game, mobile QB, always a real threat to run (if need be). These are the types of things that separate Marino from a guy like Favre in terms of greatness. People like you would just rather ignore that.
from 5 months ago
You said it buddy. You said Favre "is a joke of a QB". You have said it repeatedly. Don't try to rewrite history.
from 5 months ago
Look at you Chris, all over the blog trying to rekindle our little argument. You lost bud, you gave up, Brett is a JOKE!
Fuck you and Fuck Green Bay.
5 months ago
I'm not extrapolating anything. You said in your own words that Favre is a joke. I'm simply stating the obvious. Favre had almost identical career stats as Marino yet you are saying Favre is a joke. That is simply incoherent. The era doesn't matter its the offensive style of the team that matters. Marino played on a pass happy team just like Favre. What matters is pass attempts and Marino got his fair share. The Packers haven't always had an effective running game while Favre was a QB. They actually didn't have an effective running game until 2000 or 2001 with Ahman Green. Having an effective running game would actually be a disadvantage if your shooting for lots of passing yards and TDs. Yes Favre had good teams the 2 years he went to the Super Bowl I'll give you that. The Packers weren't so hot in other years.
I never said Favre was better than Marino or vice versa. I'm simply challenging your notion that Favre is a joke of a QB. In one of your posts you said his value to the Packers is questionable. Is it a coincedence that the Packers were one of the worst franchises for 2 decades before Favre came. Then 16 years later with Favre as their QB they have won more games than any other NFL team in that period. So what you are trying to tell me is that Favre really didn't have anything to do with that. That just doesn't fly.
5 months ago
Um... Peyton Manning has, and has had a pretty effective running game and HE HAS, and WILL CONTINUE TO rewrite the record books.
NOTE: I never said Favre's value is questionable - Can you read?
By the way, MARINO NEVER HAD AN EFFECTIVE RUNNING GAME! Try that on for size. Once he had a 1000 yard rusher --- quick, can you name him?
The fact that Marino and Favre's stats are "almost identical" (to use your words), is why we are having this argument. Favre's stats are not nearly as impressive as Marino's when you consider everything (like what is in the article and some).
5 months ago
This is getting really elementary. You are simply incoherent and can't even remember what you yourself wrote. In a post you said you said that you never said Marino was the best but in the same post you said he was best. You said Favre is a joke and Marino is the greatest. They have almost identical numbers. That just plain doesn't make any sense. This debate came up after the Giants game. The Packers had 28 yards rushing. Doesn't sound like an effective running game to me. Favre and the Packers came closer to beating this year's Super Bowl champs in the playoffs than any other team. Even closer than the undefeated Patriots. Favre and the Packers put more points on the board against the Giants than the #1 offense in NFL history. You don't know what you are talking about.
Consider this; Favre played half is games in the COLDEST stadium in the NFL. Marino played half his games in the WARMEST stadium in the NFL. If you know anything about football you would know that it is unquestionably harder to throw in cold weather. Miami is damn near tropical. That is why they have the Super Bowl there so often. Ever think about that. Sorry but you write like a 10 year old. Its impossible to argue with somebody who can't even remember what they wrote. I stand by my opinion. Marino and Favre are and were both awesome QBs.
You wrote:
Chris, again, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said "Marino was the best". Any suggestion of such was not overt; you are reading into my comments too much.
But certainly, Favre is NOT a top 5 QB. THE MAN IS A JOKE!
He has poor mechanics, he is a drama queen, and he made (and will continue to make) poor decisions that WILL COST HIS TEAM. That we know for sure. How much value he adds to the QB position for the Packers is unknown and cannot be known conclusively, but what is certain is how often he throws poor passes, off his back foot, into triple coverage, at critical times in a game, and how often those passes COST his team.
For anyone to say that Brett Favre is (was) a better QB than Dan Marino is absurd. Sure, Dan may not be the greatest, but he is now, and will be forever, amoungst the greatest.
from 5 months ago
Chris,
You must be an idiot. I guess Pack fans not only have cheese heads but cheese brains. There are no contradictions in my posts.
Your argument for Favre has resorted to WHEATHER! Would you make the same argument based on altitude? Was it easier for John Elway to through the ball in Denver than it was for Marino at below sea level in Miami? I am not a Dolphins fan, and in fact I could not care less about the Dolphins. My comments are not emotionally driven and INCOHERANT (do you know what that means?). Just because you can't piece the reasoning behind my comments together, doesn't mean that they are incoherant.
You keep repeating yourself --- "they have identical numbers..." blah, blah, blah. Keep holding on to that; Favre having similar statistics to Marino is what Favre has to cling to to maintain his false position as a great QB.
Why don't you respond to some of my comments, as opposed to trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting that I am incoherant?
5 months ago
First of all the word is spelled INCOHERENT. The word means lacking cohesion or connectivity or an expression that is unclear. The premise that Marino and Favre have nearly identical career stats but one is a joke and the other is the greatest IS a completely incoherent statement. It doesn't make any sense.
I'm not going to waste any more of my time arguing with somebody who can't even remember what they wrote though. There are now 2 instances in which you said you didn't say something where I clearly showed that you did. There is another but I'm not going to waste my time posting it. Grow up and stand by your statements. If you write something stand by it. I don't write things and then say that I never did.
5 months ago
Hey dickhead. Go have some cheese.
5 months ago
First of all, who gives a shit how things are spelled; this is not a spelling contest. Secondly, you are using incoherent incorrectly. It is completely plausible that two things have similar attributes, but are completely different in a particular context.
When you said that I clearly wrote something, you clearly DID NOT point to anything that I stated that was exactly the same.
Here is another example of what you said that I said........
"In one of your posts you said his value to the Packers is questionable. "
and what I said.......
"""He has poor mechanics, he is a drama queen, and he made (and will continue to make) poor decisions that WILL COST HIS TEAM. That we know for sure. How much value he adds to the QB position for the Packers is unknown and cannot be known conclusively, but what is certain is how often he throws poor passes, off his back foot, into triple coverage, at critical times in a game, and how often those passes COST his team.""""
....As you can plainly see, I did not say that his value is questionable, I merely SUGGESTED that his value cannot be quantified conclusively.
Your INTELLIGENCE is QUESTIONABLE. And the fact that you have not COHERENTLY responded to many of the points that I made above is evidence of your inability to do so: If you can spend the time looking for and pointing out my spelling mistakes, and then taking the time to ensure that a TYPO of yours doesn't make it through (to avoid me making fun of your ass in return), then you can clearly spend some time rebutting my arguments. Instead all you say is "but their careers are the same... blah, blah, blah".
REREAD THE ARTICLE, you cheese fuck idiot. Take a good look at the arguments the article made, and then keep saying to yourself...."but their careers are the same".... and then say ya Brett had a running game, but only for 9 years.....
5 months ago
Your constant use of profanity showcases your intellgence. I have responded to every single one of your comments with relevant data and facts without using profanity. You have no basis for the premise that Favre is a joke of a QB was my entire point. He isn't a joke of a QB. Most sports experts including former NFL players rank Favre as one of the greats. Do you know more than them? I think not.
Anyway you really need to grow up. If you reread my responses in their entirety you will find where you said precisely what you say you didn't say. So are you telling me that Marino never had a playoff game worse than the Giants example used in this article? That simply not true. Marino has had ugly playoff games to.
5 months ago
Chris,
1. My profanity has been justified, and regardless, profanity is not any indication of intelligence.
2. Please point to where "[I] said precisely what [I] said [I] didn't say", and stop mentioning it if you can't.
3. By suggesting that I have no basis to state that Favre is a joke of a QB, is nothing more than your opinion, which, is completely unsupported in your many arguments that have been rebutted.
4. There are far more experts that would agree that Favre is NOT a top 10 all-time QB - Do you know more than them?
5. When did I ever tell you that "Marino never had a playoff game worse that the Giants example used in this article"? I did no such thing. However, when he did, the Dolphins were thoroughly beaten, and were not in a game-winning position in overtime, like Favre was when he gave the playoff game away yet again.
6. You should grow up and realize that the Packers will be better off when that poor excuse for a QB retires.
5 months ago
Joe, only an ignorant fool like you could not see that the Packers were a horrible team for 20 years prior to Favre becoming their starting QB. Now after 16 years with Favre as a starting QB they have won more games than any other NFL team in that period and have made the playoffs 11 times. What are you just plain dumb. Isn't saying that the Packers are better off with another QB stating that Favre's value to the Packers is questionable. What you so say you refused to have said.
You want it here it is.
1) Earlier in this debate you said, "How poorly does a QB have to play in order for a kickoff returner to be Super Bowl MVP". I said you that wrote that he played poorly in the Super Bowl and later you said that you never wrote that he played poorly. Isn't your statement implying that he played poorly in the Super Bowl. Favre played quite well according to the stats that I listed for that game.
2) You said that you never wrote "Marino was the best" yet in the same post actually you said, "Sure, Dan may not be the greatest, but he is now, and will be forever, amoungst the greatest".
3) I wrote that you questioned Favre's value to the Packers and you said you never wrote that. Yet in one post you wrote, "How much value he adds to the QB position for the Packers is unknown and cannot be known conclusively, but what is certain is how often he throws poor passes, off his back foot, into triple coverage, at critical times in a game, and how often those passes COST his team".
I don't know what school you went to but unknown means the same thing as questionable. Questionable means open for debate which is also what unknown means. So Favre "often" often throws poor passes into triple coverage that cost his team. Does he really. I'm not denying that he has but to say he does it "often" is pushing it. The final play of the Giants game by the way was not thrown into triple coverage and Favre didn't throw it from his back foot. Has Marino ever had to play in BELOW ZERO weather before. Not that I'm aware of. Marino has thrown almost as many INTs as Favre anyway so its a moot point.
So you really think that there are more experts that wouldn't call Favre a TOP 10 QB than those that do. How do you know? Have you taken a survey? Marino himself said the following:
"As a football fan and former player and a guy who played the position, you have to really admire what Brett has been able to do," Marino tells the Daily News from the HBO studios. "It's incredible how he's lined up each and every week and played at a consistent level for so long."
So I guess Dan Marino doesn't know anything either. Do you think he would say this about Favre if he was truly "a joke" of a QB? I don't think so.
5 months ago
I guess I struck a nerve. I am not even going to bother to respond to all your bull-shit. Did you forget that Marino played against Buffalo, New York, and New England? Does it not get cold there?
FAVRE IS A JOKE OF A QB. NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WANT TO LEARN HOW TO THROW A FOOTBALL LIKE FAVRE!
Oh, by the way, since you are quoting Marino, did you forget what Favre said? That he doesn't consider himself as good as Marino.
FUCK YOU CHRIS.
from 5 months ago
That was the 3rd coldest game in NFL history. Marino didn't play in the #1 or #2 coldest games because they were before his time. No QB is going to have a great day when its BELOW ZERO. While Manning didn't throw any INTs he didn't throw any TDs either, which is the same net effect. Both Manning and Favre had QB Ratings in the low 70s for that game. Neither QB outperformed the other. That is to be expected in those conditions. The difference was that the Giants ran for 130 yards, while the Packers only ran for 28. Yet the Packers only lost by 3 points in OT to this years Super Bowl champs. The last throw wasn't ill-advised into triple coverage. It was simply a bad throw that wasn't on target. Get my drift.
5 months ago
After now spending a few minutes re-reading the crap you just posted, I feel bad for you: you must be mentally challenged. "Unknown means the same thing as questionable" - WHAT?
You are obviously very sick.
5 months ago
LOOK BOTH WORDS UP IN THE DICTIONARY??? JUST FACE IT YOU'RE A PUSSY THAT CAN'T STAND UP TO WHAT YOU SAY.
DID I SAY FAVRE WAS BETTER THAN MARINO??? WHAT I'M ARGUING IS THAT FAVRE ISN'T A JOKE OF A QB. SO I GUESS YOU ARE SAYING THAT MARINO IS A DUMBASS FOR ADMIRING WHAT BRETT FAVRE HAS DONE. MARINO HAS RESPECT FOR FAVRE AND HE PLAYED THE QB POSITION. HE THINKS BRETT IS A GOOD QB. TERRY BRADSHAW SAID FAVRE IS THE BEST QB. THEY KNOW MORE THAN YOU. THEY WERE ACTUALLY QBs IN THE NFL.
5 months ago
MY GOD!
Ok, here is what dictionary.com has to say about the word 'unknown', and the word 'questionable':
un·known
1. not known; not within the range of one's knowledge, experience, or understanding; strange; unfamiliar.
2. not discovered, explored, identified, or ascertained: the unknown parts of Antarctica.
3. not widely known; not famous; obscure: an unknown writer.
–noun 4. a thing, influence, area, factor, or person that is unknown: the many unknowns in modern medicine; The director cast an unknown in the leading role.
5. Mathematics. a symbol representing an unknown quantity: in algebra, analysis, etc., frequently represented by a letter from the last part of the alphabet, as x, y, or z.
ques·tion·a·ble
1. of doubtful propriety, honesty, morality, respectability, etc.: questionable activities; in questionable taste.
2. open to question or dispute; doubtful or uncertain: a statement of questionable accuracy.
3. open to question as to being of the nature or value suggested: a questionable privilege.
Do these words really have the same meaning?
I don't know what dictionary you are using, but maybe you should wipe the cheesewiz off the pages before you read it.
And, Terry Bradshaw? Who gives a fuck what Terry Bradshaw has to say about anything?
How old are you? 12?
5 months ago
So to you uncertain doesn't mean unknown? Are you a retard?
5 months ago
You tell me to look the words up in the dictionary, and I do, and you still argue?
No. To me, and to anyone with any respectable level of intelligence, uncertain and unknown are not the same.
The bottom line is that you are arguing about what you think I said. I said it and meant in a way you can't seem to grasp. I know what I said, and I know what I meant, and the dictionary supports me NOT you.
***I have also noticed that you are beginning to use profanity ("PUSSY"). According to you profanity "showcases your intellgence" - do you still think that?
from 5 months ago
uncertain
Not known or established; questionable: domestic changes of great if uncertain consequences.
Not determined; undecided: uncertain plans.
Not having sure knowledge: an uncertain recollection of the sequence of events.
Here you go; isn't not known the same thing as unknown? So essentially what we have here is one of the definitions of questionable is uncertain. Uncertain means not known. So essentially unknown and questionable are the same thing. Seriously I'm arguing with a total retard who has the vocabulary of a 10 year old.
Anyway I don't have time for this stuff anymore. Don't you think after the extreme profanity that you have launched at me that calling you a pussy is warranted? The discussion was fun until you just went to the extreme with the incoherent statements, personal attacks, and profanity. Talk to you later. I've had enough of this topic.
from 5 months ago
uncertain
Not known or established; questionable: domestic changes of great if uncertain consequences.
Not determined; undecided: uncertain plans.
Not having sure knowledge: an uncertain recollection of the sequence of events.
Here you go; isn't not known the same thing as unknown? So essentially what we have here is one of the definitions of questionable is uncertain. Uncertain means not known. So essentially unknown and questionable are the same thing. Seriously I'm arguing with a total retard who has the vocabulary of a 10 year old.
Anyway I don't have time for this stuff anymore. Don't you think after the extreme profanity that you have launched at me that calling you a pussy is warranted? The discussion was fun until you just went to the extreme with the incoherent statements, personal attacks, and profanity. Talk to you later. I've had enough of this topic.
5 months ago
I WIN!
BRETT FAVRE IS A JOKE!
5 months ago
Forget the Favre Marino discussion. Who is the best web blog comment poster. I think it is Chris. It has to be. Chris has posted on more sports blogs than Joe. Although Joe makes more arguements, Chris is faster and more detailed in his responses. Even though Joe has been responding to articles before Chris has started to. They are both very passionate about posting comments on the web, but Chris just seems to have an edge. And I have seen both of them respond to things. But what about Steffen? Steffen might become a better web blogger than both Chris and Joe combined in a few years. Its a tough call. Only time will tell.
5 months ago
Here's a few new topics for you 2 lovebirds to discuss......
Fruity Pebbles or Cocoa Pebbles
Tacos: Soft shell or Crunchy
Who played the best Batman?
Was Pele better than Beckham?
360, Wii or PS3?
Crayons or Cray-Pas?
Miller Light or Bud Light
Plastic or Carboard applicators
Creation or Evolution
Did Christopeher Columbus really discover America?
The Death Penalty
Whos sleeping with who on Desperate Houswives?
There you have some new topics. Discuss.
5 months ago
Cocoa pebbles, crunchy, NOT george clooney, Pele, Wii, cray-pa, Miller, plastic (i guess), evolution, yes, no, don't care, Brett Favre.
4 months ago
Joe sounds unstable.
4 months ago
I thought there was drama on MTV and that other bullshit, but you two lovebirds have went to a new stage.
4 months ago
I vote for chris.
4 months ago
I vote for Joe
4 months ago
I agree with everything mentioned.
What wasnt mention much...Dan' mechanics are perfect..if you judge or couch QB's start with Dan.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2407846397
4 months ago
Joe...ever notice how people who like some other QB come into the Dan groups and write ups to leave thier comments! haha say it all...Dan backers dont go into Brett Favre or any other QB groups to bash them!
I never heard a playerof african desent say favre is the man..That says it all as well
4 months ago
3 MVPS
and a super bowl ring.
what about Marino?
4 months ago
Man, you guys broke up the fight. I was watching with great interest. Come on Joe and Chris! Insult each other more, and discuss the great Dan Marino and the...uh, "good" Brett Favre.
4 months ago
Uh, Brett Favre...in same sentence as Dan the Man????? Dont think so. Chris, your way out there.
4 months ago
To call Favre undeserving of the greatest QB of all time is idiotic!!
You're an idiot Sam L.
from 4 months ago
What an incredibly insightful comment, Donnie. Thank you so much for showing me the error of my ways.
4 months ago
How many seasons did Marino play with a sprained thumb? Keep in mind also, Ahman Green led the NFL in rushing over a 5-yr period during Favre's prime. The facts don't lie - nobady stacks up to Favre.
4 months ago
Marino had 8 or 9 off season knee surguries from his rookie season onward. Also, the torn achilies that sidelined him for 11 games in 93 - which led to him having to wear a huge brace on his leg for the REST OF HIS CAREER (similar to the one that Philip Rivers had to where in this past year's playoffs - where his mobility and throwing ability was noticably limited for that ONE game). Not to mention the special boot that he had to wear to support that torn achillies.
The facts are that Favre was good but Marino is a legend. No quarterback in their prime was more dominant than Dan Marino.
No quarterback played for as many futile teams, and accomplished as much, than Dan Marino.
We will see how the Pack does without Favre - that will shed some light on this argument.
from 3 months ago
So what does that say about Marino? That he was injury prone. Part of being a great football player is actually being available to play and play consistently. Favre threw 30TDs or more in half the seasons that he played and played in 253 consecutive regular season games. That is where no other QB can touch Brett Favre. Consistency and durability.
Actually to argue with you, no QB in their prime was more dominant than Favre. Favre averaged 35TDs a season for 5 consecutive seasons from 1994-1999. The only person who matched that was Peyton Manning but that mostly came from his big 49TD season. Favre had FIVE STRAIGHT seasons with 30 or more TDs. NO OTHER QB has done that. The closest was Dan Marino at three. So in his prime Brett Favre was the most dominant not only QB but player in the NFL. That is without question. He won three consecutive MVP awards and threw for 30 or more TDs in FIVE consecutive seasons and eight total in his career. Nobody comes close to Favre for consecutive and total 30TD seasons. NOT CLOSE.
from 3 months ago
CHRIS,
YOU'RE AT IT AGAIN!!!!
You're arguments are tired. This particular one was rebutted above.
You must only be 11 or 12 years old!
from 3 months ago
CHRIS,
Since you either forgot, or did not read it the first time, I thought I'd reproduce Marino's first 5 years in the NFL to REBUT again you're assertion that Favre was more dominate than Marino based on Favre's 35 TD's per year average (over 5 years). Oh ya, you didn't reply to this earlier so I don't expect one here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marino:
1983 = 20Td's in 11 games (9 games as the starter)
1984 = 48Td's in 16 games
1985 = 30Td's in 16 games
1986 = 44Td's in 16 games
1987 = 26 Td's in 12 games (strike shortened)
Total = 168 Td's in 71 games = 33.6 Td's average over a 5 year period BUT WAIT... in two of those seasons, Marino missed 9 games, so let's take that into consideration (or maybe we shouldn't? At least that is what you want right CHRIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
But here it is:
168/71 = 2.36 per game (and I've even rounded down)
THEN... 2.36 x 80 (80 being the total games over a five year stretch) = 188.8
THEN... take 188 (notice I've also taken .8 Td's away) and divide by 5 (the number of seasons that you have chosen to use for the average) and you get ==== 37.6 Td average for Marino over a 5 year stretch (not to mention that I included 11 games for his first season of which he only started 9).
Alas, a 37.6 Td average is more than Favre's 35 (of which I am relying on your research), but of course, you CHRIS would much rather look at seasons and disregard the actual games played... that way you can artificially carve out Favre as being more dominate.
You lose AGAIN CHRIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
from 3 months ago
You're stats are based on a hypothetical situation not on facts. The FACT remains that Favre is the only QB in NFL history to throw for 30TDs or more in FIVE consecutive seasons. That is a fact, and one not based on a hypothetical statement. You can argue that Marino might have accomplished this had he played 16 games in two of those seasons but he didn't. Favre is the only QB in NFL history to throw for 30TDs in five straight seasons. PERIOD. I post facts not silly hypotheticals.
YOU LOSE
from 3 months ago
What hypothetical are you talking about?
The FACT is that over the period of 5 years that I identified, Marino throw more TD's per game than Favre. How is that a hypothetical? Do we have to go back to the dictionary again?
Loser.
BTW - how many 40 TD seasons did Favre have?
Right.
from 3 months ago
Again Joe, you seem incapable of grasping a simple concept such as recognizing what you yourself wrote. You are calculating hypothetical season results based on Marino's performance in shortened seasons to assume that he would have produced to a given level. Calculating what kind of season an NFL player would have had by using the games they played in that season is patently hypothetical. It isn't reality. Its hypothetical. You got that.
Sure Marino had more TDs per game in those 5 years that you mentioned but the reality is that Brett Favre is still the only QB in NFL history to throw 30TDs in 5 consecutive seasons. Like it or not. That is a fact. Would Marino have likely done it had he played all the games in the two seasons you mentioned? There is a good chance, but we will never know. It still doesn't change reality. Would Babe Ruth have hit as many home runs as Hank Aaron had he played as many games? We don't know because he didn't. Assuming he would have is not reality and is hypothetical like what you are saying. You are saying that if Marino had played all 16 games in two of those seasons that he would have averaged 37 TDs per season but like I said that isn't reality. That is an estimation. Estimations can be incorrect. A 16 game N