With his recent guilty plea to animal cruelty charges in a Virginia court, there has been much speculation about Michael Vick's return to the NFL. His projected release date of July 20 would be just in time for him to report to an NFL training camp. His release could even be moved up with the plea.
While there are many who believe Vick should not be allowed to return to the NFL, it must be said that he isn't as bad as some who have been arrested and returned to the league.
In a data table compiled by the San Diego Union-Tribune, there have been 385 arrests among NFL players since 2000. Of those, 163 were repeat offenders, i.e. guys who were given (at least) a second chance.
Care to guess how many of those arrests were one Michael Dwayne Vick? One. That's right: Just one time was this guy hauled in out of 385 total arrests of NFL players.
Dog fighting is a disgusting, despicable crime, but at the end of the day, it's not a crime against humanity. Now before the PETA types start in, I'm not saying it's better to hurt a dog than a human. It's just really not as big of a deal.
There are an average of 43 arrests per year among NFL players, and about 21 of those are violent crimes—violent crimes against other human beings. Many of these guys serve a game or two suspension and do a little community service, and they're back on the field without any more questions.
Let's take a look at some of these offenders.
May 20, 2007: New York Jets CB/KR Justin Miller was arrested at 4:20am after assaulting a woman in a night club and running from the cops. Sure, Justin was trying to punch a man, but the guy ducked and Miller's fist found a woman's face—but does that really make it any better? No one ever spoke up against Miller's return to the field.
July 26, 2007: Carolina OT Jeremy Bridges pointed a gun at a Charlotte strip club employee. He was suspended two games and was fined $500. Wait, $500? That can't be right, let me check... Yes, he was fined a mere $500 for threatening another human being's life. Maybe they were hoping the whopping 60-day suspended jail sentence and 60 days of community service would teach him.
Aug. 5, 2007: Buffalo DE Anthony Hargrove was charged with resisting arrest, harassment, and criminal mischief after striking a police officer at yet another night club. Hargrove was forced to pay a staggering $300 fine and perform 200 hours of community service.
July 17, 2007: Michael Vick was arrested for violating federal laws on dog fighting. He was sentenced to 23 months in federal prison. He was barred from training camp and indefinitely suspended by the NFL.
In other words, it's not so bad to punch women or police officers, or to wave guns around and resist arrest, but if you so much as kick your dog, you're going to the big house. It just doesn't make sense.
If we stop and think about it, Michael Vick will play football again. It may come as a shock to some, but there are leagues out there besides the NFL. The Arena Football League and the Canadian Football League come to mind.
After his bout with the law and the NFL, Ricky Williams landed on a Canadian team roster. It would probably be a shot in the arm for a team's attendance in one of these "Secondary" leagues.
Even lower on the totem pole are minor indoor football leagues. The players' salaries can range from $100 to $500 per game, and they are allowed to "chase their dream" as long as their body holds up.
There are leagues like the CIFL (Continental Indoor Football League), the SIFL (Southern Indoor Football League), and the AIFA (American Indoor Football Association). Surely one of these P.T. Barnum "wannabes" would sign Vick, if only to bring attention to his team.
The bottom line is that NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is taking a tough stance on player conduct. But he could be a little more judicious about picking his battles.
After Vick serves his time in prison, he should be done with his punishment and allowed to move on with his life—and it would be better for the NFL to have him in the fold than for him to be out helping to promote a competing league.
85 comments Last one added 4 months ago — Leave a Comment
Shane H. 7 months ago
i couldn't agree with you more on this. I hope he comes back to the NFL because I don't want to have to hunt him down trying to find the CIFL or any other small league.
I see the whole dogfighting as horrible but many do seem to act as if he was killing off human beings. I come from Jamaica and our thoughts on dogs are way different than Americans. Dogs are to protect the home. THey stay outside and aren't driven around in cars with their head sticking out the window.
Here, Americans treat dogs as if they are their children. It's mind-boggling sometimes. I love dogs but I'm sorry, I would kill one easily before I do in a human being.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
You're an idiot.
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Nathan B 7 months ago
Uh -- well, guess what, we're in America, not Jamaica, or China, where dogs are food.
In some countries in Africa, they are revered as holy spirits.
So the completely inane cultural reference as an excuse for Vick's actions are more mind-boggling than anything Americans do with their dogs.
Maybe we should pick out the things we don't like in Jamaican culture (there are plenty, just like in America), go live there, and criticize them for it. That makes as much sense as what you're doing.
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Shane H. 7 months ago
Go ahead and criticize Jamaica, is that supposed to get me upset? I am educated enough to be able to find faults with both the country I came from and the one I currently reside in.
I agreed with the fact that dogfighting is cruel and horrible. But I wonder if Vick would be tried as hard as he is now if he was forcing humans to fight, a la Fight Club. (And they discarded the loser) The thing I am trying to say is that pets (dogs mainly) are put on this high pedestal, sometimes more cared about than humans.
Dogs are animals yet we want to domesticate them. Why don't we domesticate deer or elk? No, instead they are shot and mounted, all the while being filmed to be shown on ESPN2 early weekend mornings. But that's fair right? There's no cruelty in that? The elk knows its here on this planet to get picked off by some camouflaged hunter right?
I'm no vegetarian. I love my meat. I know animals die to fill my stomach. I'm not going to cry about the poor chicken that was decapitated and plucked to become my dinner last night. The only people who should be mad at Vick are vegetarians.
So yeah, call me what you like as long as you don't call me late to dinner.
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Lisa G 7 months ago
Michael Vick should be treated (and you all for that matter) the same way those innocent puppies were...we'll throw you and any one else, that thinks this uneducated loser should be able to go back to the life of a millionaire, in the ring with a bunch of scared, abused animals and let them rip you apart piece by piece while we all cheer them on....purley for our entertainment....hearing your cries and screams (especially Michael Vicks) would give these animals the voice they deserve!!!!!! If human beings, as you call him, would start thinking of animals as a privillege instead of a right (especially to make money) than maybe we wouldn't even be having this discusting discussion!
The only way he should be able to play ball again is for (the love of the game...right) then he should have to donate 95% of his earnings to protect animal rights and live like the common man does, just tryiing to get by!!!!!!!
Animals especially dogs are more loving and loyal than most people and their power to enrich our lives shouldn't be underestimated! You're a fool if you think their lives don't count!
Jail is to good for him and the 12cents he is making an hour, and any of you that don't see the" wrong" in his doings, should watch out because you may be sharing that cell with him soon....the real "ANIMALS" in this are the ones on Micheal "The Animal Killer" side.
Leave the position open for a real Man!
Lisa G
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michael waters 7 months ago
And I understand where you're coming from. But as Leon said below, if the shoe was on your foot after being in federal prison for two years you'd have to work for years to get your reputation and career back. The fact that this guy has ANY opportunity to get some kind of a career in professional sports back within just a few months of release is more than he deserves. And I'd just like you to think what kind of a man this is. He's a sadist, with a truly diseased mind. Personally he makes my skin crawl. When I picture this fool with a smile on his face, hooting and hollering while some poor hapless dog is mauled to death in front of him, or with a smug grin on his face as he shoots a dog in the head after it loses, I don't give a shit if he ever gets a career back. He's a piece of crap.
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george anthony 7 months ago
Yea this country is crazy right. You have hunting as a legal sport. Killing dear and mounting there heads on your wall as a trophy thats legal but making two dogs fight each other god forbid. People need to remember that these arent human beings. They are animals, inferior creatures. Whatever im not here for moral debates. From a sports aspect Michael Vick should be allowed to play football. If Adam "punkman" Jones can play football again then there is no reason Vick should be held out AFTER serving time in a federal prison. The NFL and Roger Goddell needs to take a serius look in the mirror and realize that they are not the law. Let law inforcement do their job in punishing crime. Stop thinking that you are the second form of Law in America, mind your own bisinuss.
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Nicole E 7 months ago
you're comparing DEER to DOGS?!?!
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Morgan C 7 months ago
Unbelievable. I honestly cannot understand how anyone could be sick enough to want that disgusting piece of trash to return to the NFL. Besides the fact that the coward deserves the same fate as the poor creatures he hung, drowned, electrocuted, and watched, amused, as he forced them to tear eachother to pieces, it sends a horrible message to kids who idolize pro football players. It is terrifying to think of a little kid idolizing this monster.
George, what Vick did is not hunting. This sick bastard did not kill a dog and put its head on the wall. He forced them to rip eachother apart then killed the ones who couldn't fight anymore. And instead of shooting them, the loser drowned, hung, and electrocuted them. Someone capable of that could easily be capable of murdering a human. He is a cold blooded killer who should rot in prison.
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Rick Baker 7 months ago
While I believe everyone, with the exception of child molesters, rapists and cold blooded murderers, deserves a chance to change their lives we should be a little more descriptive of what occurred here. If you read the federal indictment, which is as gruesome as any Saw movie, Vick and his co-conspirators are charged with at least 82, yes 82, separate "overt acts" (each a violation of state and federal law in and of themselves) which they undertook in furtherance of their criminal conspiracy. These acts included trafficking in illegal monetary transactions, money laundering, mail fraud, wire fraud, racketeering, illegal gambling, torture of the animals, execution of dogs on at least nine occasions by various means including but not limited to: drowning, shooting, electrocution, beating, "body slamming", and placing inferior dogs and "pets" into the ring with trained killer dogs for the purpose of watching them mauled to death, all while Vick and his cohorts looked on and cheered.
You're comparison by means of describing Vick's barbaric run of blood lust by writing this sentence: "Michael Vick was arrested for violating federal laws on dog fighting", to some of the other "one time" incidents in your piece,thereby seeking to equate the incidents and point out some kind of uneven and unfair treatment of Vick is misleading and quite frankly silly.
What would have been more appropriate would have been for you to find an example of someone who had been convicted on 82 separate counts of torture, animal cruelty, money laundering, racketeering and illegal bookmaking and then comparing how the sentences stacked up against one another. The fact that he had a clean record is all that saved him from ten years in prison. The fact that he was convicted of conspiracy in federal court was the best thing that happened to Vick. He very well could have been tried on each individual crime in state AND federal court. Under those circumstances you wouldn't need to concern yourself with the horrid circumstances he finds his career in, because he would be in prison until 2020 or thereabouts.
The man is lucky he even has a possible future. Don't make him out to be a victim. He doesn't deserve it.
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Danny Burnham 7 months ago
I understand your point, but I wasn't making him out to be a victim. He broke the law, he deserved to go to jail. When he gets out of jail, he deserves to be allowed to move on with his life. If the sentence for a conviction on 82 counts is 23 months, then let it be 23 months and allow this man to go on with his life. But if he ever does it again, drop the hammer and end his football career.
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Rick Baker 7 months ago
And I understand where you're coming from. But as Leon said below, if the shoe was on your foot after being in federal prison for two years you'd have to work for years to get your reputation and career back. The fact that this guy has ANY opportunity to get some kind of a career in professional sports back within just a few months of release is more than he deserves. And I'd just like you to think what kind of a man this is. He's a sadist, with a truly diseased mind. Personally he makes my skin crawl. When I picture this fool with a smile on his face, hooting and hollering while some poor hapless dog is mauled to death in front of him, or with a smug grin on his face as he shoots a dog in the head after it loses, I don't give a shit if he ever gets a career back. He's a piece of crap.
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Leon Horne 7 months ago
I think the point is that anyone who is found guilty of a criminal offense will have trouble getting employment in the real world. I would lose my job if I went to prison and they wouldn't take me back unless I got a pardon after serving my sentence, which doesn't come within a month of finishing your sentence. So what because you are a pro athlete, a criminal record shouldn't matter when applying for a job or reinstatement? Why?
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David Yeazell 7 months ago
I apoligize ahead of time if you find this insulting. My response is in no way is directed towards the author.
Whats written in this article is exactly what's wrong with the majority of professional sports.
What day did we wake up and decide that criminals, not matter how small the offense, once convicted, they are criminals, should be given "another" chance?
Your article points out that the NFL, and for that matter, most other professional sports, is riddled with criminals. If Vick worked for say, GM, or Wal Mart, or any other large corporation, would they re-hire him? I doubt it. In fact, most companies will not hire someone with a criminal record, let alone a multiple felony conviction. Just for the record also, even though he has served his time, or the time given, he is still a convicted felon, which means he cannot vote, basically has no civil rights, and unless pardoned by the president of the United States, will always be a felon. He knew what he was doing, period.
Each person breaking the law knows what they are doing, and certainly know that if the consequences would be career ending, then would think twice about their actions, or the situations they choose to put themselves in.
If Vick were still in college, he would be DONE!! Maybe professional sports should take note of this.
My kids along with MILLIONS OF OTHERS, watch football, basketball, racing and anything else on TV. They also, via the internet, read about this stuff and know the outcomes. We are teaching our kids that this kind of behavior, as well as other criminal types, is acceptable, and that a second chance, no matter what, is owed to them.
Roger Goodell should be leader and put his foot down and make it perfectly clear, you break the law, your done. Put integrity first, and ratings and money second. What an example that would set.
One other thing, I find it appalling that George not only condones Vicks actions, but considers a dog an inferior creature, what a disgusting comment. Shame on you.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
Why would you apologize for being spot on?!
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Nate Powers 7 months ago
The NFL is a fanbase sport, and many of the eyes belong to kids. What kind of role model would you want your kid to look up to. These players are getting paid a lot of money to set an example and many of them can't. I would understand if you were caught speeding or something of that nature, but killing and torturing a living thing is unexceptible. It's good to see that the Falcons have moved on with Matt Ryan, and the NFL and Vick should. He has had his chance at something many people would die for and that is to play in the NFL. He blew that chance, and he should live with it.
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larnell selvy 7 months ago
well vick is wrong but it is not the job of an nfl player to raise your kid just maybe if people take action to fix the problem with today youth. there probably was no real male figure in vicks life so people should look at the situation were these men came from and what he has done don't be so quick to hand down a sentence on a person life. the sad thing is i here people saying he trained those dog to fight check the history pit bulls are natural fighter born to fight and people who just guess vick was present at these fights no one had physical evidence it was just what people said to get there self out of trouble so they play the blame game and vick happen to be the winner so the nf should do whats right and reinstate vick
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Nate Powers 7 months ago
Well seeing that Goodell still lets pacman jones play and the cokehead matt jones from the jaguers why wouldnt he let vick play. All im saying is that vick was proven guilty in a court of law and that makes him a felon. He shouldnt be aloud to play in the nfl. and it doesnt matter if pitbulls are "born" fighters, theres an invention called a leashed and im pretty sure that it wasnt made to sit on a shelf in some pet mart.
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Michael Inglis 7 months ago
I think you have pro sports confussed with parenting. If your role model is a professional athlete then you are not doing your job as a parent.
My favorite player is sports is Chipper Jones but does that mean I think it is okay to cheat on your wife? Of course not.
You should know the difference between right and wrong from your parents/guardian. I'm all for Vick playing in the NFL again, but that doesn't mean I approve of dog fighting? no.
Charles Barkley said it best, " I don't believe professional athletes should be role models. I believe parents should be role models.... It's not like it was when I was growing up. My mom and my grandmother told me how it was going to be. If I didn't like it, they said, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out." Parents have to take better control."
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kris topher 7 months ago
Goodell is a business man, and a good one at that. He undoubtedly sat down with Michael Vick for a talk before everything got out of control. I'm sure he wanted to do some damage control if Michael Vick did do something illegal, so he treated Vick like a man and talked to him.
Unfortunately Michael Vick, the coward that he is, lied to Goodell and has fucked himself over. I'm just speculating when I say Goodell sat Vick down and said "DID YOU DO THIS SHIT, FUCKTARD?" but if you're running a business, what would you do?
Vick was the face of the league, and Goodell would have helped him if he could. Instead, Vick dragged it out and ended up making everyone look like crap. He wouldn't even fess up until someone snitched on him.
If you're a wealthy powerful man like Goodell, you do not like being embarrassed. When it comes DWIs -- Goodell has his hands bound because alcoholism is a disease. Goodell is smart to get these guys help rather than take away their livelihood which would lead to future trouble. When it comes to violence, Goodell understands that the majority of NFL players are a bit more aggressive than your average human being. Dog fighting on the other hand is just fucked.
Goodell could have found a way to spin it which would have involved an immediate public apology and the donation of a large portion of his signing bonus to PETA. Instead, Vick played it out and made the entire NFL look like a group of thugs.
When you get a contract that pays you 15 million dollars a year, 12 of that is because you're the face of the franchise.
If you do something stupid, you get a second chance. If you do something stupid, and make the commissioner of the league (thats clearly trying to help you) look like an idiot, and refuse to fess up -- no second chance for you.
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David Yeazell 7 months ago
AMEN!!
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Nicole E 7 months ago
you're a fucking idiot. he harmed animals, purposely, and without any remorse. yeah, he plays football for the NFL. woopty fucking doo. (i'm a football fan, don't worry) he has LOTS of $$$$$$ for good lawyers, therefore he won't serve NEARLY as much time as he should. if he were any random ass person and let's say, the ASPCA caught him, he'd serve more time. but with an ignorant fuck like him to BARELY get what he deserves.... doesn't surprise me at all. Here's the thing. PETA freaked out and said "omg every NFL player needs to go through "animal cruelty counseling" honestly, fuck that. that's ridiculous and I don't agree with it one bit. But if you have NO problem DOG fighting, then you have a serious issue. The general public looks at this like it's nothing and that drives me nuts. Obviously, he probably learned his lesson (and good for him if he did) but here's the thing. He KNEW it was wrong to begin with. He KNEW the legal consequences he would face "if he got caught" which he obviously did. But did he give a shit? Absolutely not. I'd LOVE to sit down and talk with him, just to hear his reasonings and his fucking retardedness that caused this entire mess. Fuck you Michael Vick. Hopefully RIP. Let's put Vick in the middle of a ring, and use a baby as bait. Same thing, right? Freak out all you want, people. But it's true (I love babies and puppies so please forgive me) but really. REALLY
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Michael Inglis 7 months ago
In case you don't know Vick is serving more time than anyone involved. So I wouldn't say his money is helping him serve less time. 23 months in jail is actually longer than "normal" people get for the same offense. I've read where people get as little as 6 months in jail. Vick got a longer sentence because he was the ring leader and there were many jobs involved. So clearly his money isn't helping him out.
Besides I'm not sure how much money he actually has. Several banks have filed lawsuits against him and I believe he has filed for bankruptcy.
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Nicole E 7 months ago
(Kris that wasn't send to you, p.s.)
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Nicole E 7 months ago
I completely agree with Danny. You do the damn crime then you deserve to serve the sentence just like the rest of us. Your damn football contract can wait. If those dogs had to live their live on the line then you can wait a few years. Shit. "Do it for the Dogs"
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Dwight Palmer 7 months ago
Ah, America. The only nation outside of India that values their pets more than their neighbors. This man got more prison time than most people receive for vehicular manslaughter where actual people get killed. No doubt he was guilty, but I have a real issue with the importance of this crime. We've got real criminals on the streets that do far worse. Please let the authorities arrest someone that actually threatens our society.
Vick's real crime was stupidity. That should be illegal.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
How can you treat what he did like it doesn't matter. He spent years torturing animals for his greed and pleasure. This was no accident. This was premeditated. He went around the tidewater area snatching innocent dogs for sport. Read the indictment. This is not a cultural thing, it's a values thing. He is a ruthless, evil felon that was convicted of murderer, get it?
You say you coach youth sports, how would you explain Vick's felony charges to your kids?
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Dwight Palmer 7 months ago
You cannot murder an animal, that designation is reserved for humans. We kill millions of animals every year for food, clothing and even to reduce their numbers. I can't get too excited about this crime.
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Nicole E 7 months ago
Dwight, I won't disagree with you at all. BUT, the importance of this article is about Vick and dog fighting, not our neighbors. I agree when you view what you do, but we're talking about dog fighting here. Straight up, vicious animals trained to kill one another, and use little laboradors as bait. What are your thoughts?
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c.j. H 7 months ago
I'd like to go back to the "deer hunting" argument. Somebody said,"You're comparing deer to dogs?" and I don't understand what the difference is. We allow for people to legally go into the woods with a very deadly weapon (duh) and glamorize the glory of murdering, yes murdering an animal which is the exact same thing Vick did. Does it really matter how somebody kills another person? So long as it is premeditated, 3rd Degree, or considered the same type of offense, the penalties are the same. So why is a dog's life so much more valuable than that of a deer.
Sure, Vick may be sadistic, but in my eyes what he did is no different than the act performed by hunters every year. Where I'm from, which is not even a hick town, opening day of hunting season is damn near a holiday around the state. You can put a bullet in a deer, watch it limp away while blood is coming out of it, get up close to it, and then you can pop a bullet right into its head. Then many people take them home, hang em from a tree, and skin them in their front yard.
These deer are harmless animals that are good-natured animals 99% of the time. So if you can train an animal to kill another one, it obviously is not an animal that should be considered sacred. Pitbulls are bloodthirsty animals that can be tame, but there is an innate killer instinct in them.
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Nate Powers 7 months ago
Just to straighten the whole deer part out. People hunt deer because they are over populated, they eat everything, were dogs are domestic animals, incase u didn't know people for the most part don't have deer for pets, because theyre untrainable.
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Shane H. 7 months ago
I agree with you CJ.
To you Nate, so in this world of ours we're humans continue to grow and we may soon run out of available land without changing the landscape, we should start killing off humans? Is that what you are saying? We are over populating this world and we sure as hell eat everything. We are domestic creatures. I took your comment to the extreme I know but still...Did the first dog go knocking on a cave wall with a sign saying "Take me in. I rather not run around free"?
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Morgan C 7 months ago
Nate is right. Dogs are domestic, not wild. The are loyal companions.
Also, I have many relatives that hunt deer. I am in high school and I'm going to be a veterinarian, so I don't really understand the fun in killing animals. But I do know that what this sick bastard did was NOT hunting. The loser did not shoot a dog. He forced them to tear eachother apart. He watched and cheered as they fought to near death. Then he allowed them to heal enough until they could do it again. Once they were too weak to fight anymore, he either hung, drowned, or electrocuted them.
He is a sick freak who should rot in prison.
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Kent Nguyen 7 months ago
Vick has committed a crime. However, after serving his time, he should be able to integrate himself back into public life. What makes professional sports any different from other jobs. He is a role model yes. But he can also be a role model after his release. He can be a member of peta and advocate against the unethical treament of dogs as one PETA member has suggested.
Don't be jealous because he was payed $100 million dollars. The amount he makes is irrelevant. Yes Playing in the nfl is not a right. Its a priviledge. But he worked extremely hard to make the nfl. Although he was an inconsistent passer.
Let Vick TRY OUT for a club. If no one takes him, so be it. Just because its fashionable to hate Vick does not make it right to deny him the opportunity to try out again.
Was Vick stupid? Certainly. Did he deserve to go to jail? Definitely.
After he serves his time. Let him try to make it back in the NFL. Many people think he does not deserve it, but if he shows remorse and attempt to repair his image and participate in community service with PETA, then I"m all for it.
The USA is a country to second chances. Give Vick another chance at redemption.
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Nicole E 7 months ago
Hunting and torturing are two completely different things. We are basically raised to hunt deer. Here's the thing c.j., I am alllllll against animal cruelty, believe me. Deer are (supposed) to be shot basically point blank, and (hopefully) feel no pain. I honestly am surprised myself that I am not a vegetarian... I really can't disagree with you on this. BUT, are deer our pets? Do they live in our house, watch over our children, we feed them, we clean up their shit, we play with them, etc.? No they don't. (if they could that'd actually be pretty sweet) But really I'm just saying. Deer are not pets. While they are usually inhumanely killed which I disagree with and try to steer away from.... they are not dogs. That's the only thing I'm trying to stress here.
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thomas moreland 7 months ago
good comments! please read ed berlingers vick article and my article joey porter they were just dogs!!! You morons that compare deer hunting to dog fighting please crawl back into your cave! What freakin idiots! tHere are no inate killer instinct in pit bulls. i m around pits at my work where i take care of the owners dogs and i own a rescued pit bull and 8 other dogs. all the agression the dogs have are all taught by people. ANy large breed dog will protect his food and area . they are naturally teritorial , nothing more, from the smallest poodle to a great dane they will protect thier food bowl from intruders and their living area against strangers! anyway we don t need sick sociopathic people in football! see Ed BERLINGERS article vick back to gladatorial days and joey porter they were just dogs that i wrote!!! dogs depend on people for love food and shelter. they are called man s best friend for a reason, when you give them simple attention and caring they will devote themselves to you entirely and absolurely, They are fiercly loyal smart and brave, They save many peoples lives on a daily basis in this country. they are companions for the sick they are guide dogs and help dogs for people with handicaps. I can trust my dogs to be there for my comfort with no fear of betrayal. better than most men and a lot of women. DANNY no way he should ever be allowed to play again, Joey porter is also very borderline in my opinion! please don t write any more dribble like this. you have an overwhelming response against vick i noticed!!! bravo animals lovers! someone has to stand uo for defenseless creatures. cJ MAN is way more bloodthirsty than any pit bull!!! and when s the last time a deer pulled someone out of a burning building or drowned saving your liitle boy from a frozen pond, you absolute freakin moron!!! Jesus stupid peoplw really annoy the hell out of me! god help us! thomas
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Kent Nguyen 7 months ago
The only difference between deer and dogs is perception.
The point some guys on here are trying to emphasise is that they are not human.
It is socially unacceptable to torture and kill dogs. Thats just how it is. We live in a society whose laws stem from socially accepted values.
It some peoples minds, animals are just animals. In others, some are more precious than others and I very well understand that.
THe bottom line is. Vick broke the law. Its undeniable. He has been severely punished. And i emphasise serverely. But also deservedly.
Whatever qualms you have with Vicks crimes are ultimately irrelevant. He did the crime and will serve the time.
Vick should be cautiously welcomed back into the football community. He must show remorse and change in character. He must repair his image and the NFL's image.
Maybe after this fiasco. He will show maturity and develop into the dual-threat unstoppable quarterback we envisioned since he lead the Falcons to the NFC Championship in his second (or maybe first?) season.
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c.j. H 7 months ago
Point understood. However, I don't think that the law should determine which animals' lives should and should not be considered sacred. As far as being pets, deer cannot be domesticated for the simple fact that they are large, and they need to move freely. That said, I do know of somebody who has had a pet deer. Whether or not they're pets, people in the far East eat dog, and many people in India find our lust for beef absurd and inhumane. The notion of right and wrong is often cultural or in the eye of the beholder. This argument is digressing somewhat and should be focused onthe man, Michael Vick.
He's nutty, kinda sick, and and doesn't seem to care that he broke several laws. And yes Nicole, he used awful judgment, and his lack of cause and effect thought process led him here. His lying got him here. His illegal dealings with money and gambling got him here. I say he did deserve the time he's done due to sadistic he was, and the fact that he was dumb enough to break the laws. Vick deserves the chance to do what he loves. I suppose we'll leave it up to Roger Goodell.
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c.j. H 7 months ago
To Thomas:
Yes, pitbulls are aggressive animals and no it does not have to be taught. Yeah, I'm not saying man isn't a bloodthirsty animal, but pits ARE. They have attacked people several times that I know, attacked my Aunt and put her in the hospital and have killed small children. Yes I'm a moron, who the hell are you to decide which animal should live and which should die. Yeah, go ahead and tell me about some that is a such a congenial animal. How often do you hear about deer attacks compared to dog attacks.
You know why dog is "man's best friend"? Because they are smaller, manageable, and more trainable animals. They certainly are not superior to deer. Do you think they're smarter? Do you think superior? Do you believe that a dog could survive in the wild as well as a deer? I'm going with no on about all of them.
Dogs do many great things, I won't dispute that because I know it to be a fact, but do you see pits being trained for police use or seeing eye dogs?
You are letting your love for dogs cloud your vision in the whole scheme of things. I'll say it again, DEER ARE TO BIG AND NEED TO MOVE CONSTANTLY, THEY ARE NOT THE TYPE OF ANIMAL THAT IS EASILY DOMESTICATED. JUST BECAUSE DOGS ARE A MORE SENSIBLE CHOICE AS A PET DOES NOT MAKE THEM ANY MORE VALUABLE. I respect your point of view, and I knew somebody was going to say all that. People who do not agree with you aren't morons, you're the dope for thinking that your point of view is absolute and rock solid.
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Danny Burnham 7 months ago
Ok, I should have done this before, but here is my disclaimer, and I'll try to cover all the bases here. I do not condone dog fighting, It is sick and cowardly and those that take part should be punished by law. This however is not the same as hunting, where animals are killed for food, which is kind of like slaughtering cattle for hamburgers or pigs for pork right? I mean who here has never had a hamburger or a slice of bacon? I am a Christian and my Bible says God gave man dominion over animals. That doesn't mean go around killing indescriminantly, but killing food is definitely ok. Dog fighting falls under the indescriminant killing category so that makes it wrong.
As far as pro athletes being role models. When Daryl Strawberry got suspended from MLB when I was a kid, my dad took the time to explain why what he had done was wrong, and why I should not look at people like him as a role model, and I subsequently have never been arrested for drug use or domestic violence( or anything else for that matter). It's what good parents do.I don't have kids, but when I do, I'll make sure to offer the same guidance. Pro athletes are human and will make mistakes, if you allow your kids to look up to them as role models without your guidance then that's your fault.
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Kent Nguyen 7 months ago
I agree. You make some very good points. Dog fighting is not acceptable.I don;t think the word your looking for is indiscriminant. I think you meant to say we kill for food, instead of kill for sport, entertainment.
Yeh Sports stars are role models, but parents have a responsibility to their children as well.
Vick was once a rolemodel. Maybe he can be one again: a person who turned their life around after committing ridiculous crimes. He can show kids the consequences of poor decisions and their crippling effect. But also how people that have done bad things can reedeem themselves.
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Kent Nguyen 7 months ago
I know. Vick should thrive in Minnesota. Ferotte, though good at times this year is obviously not the answer.
And Childress for some reason loved T.Jackson. For his cannon arm and ability to scramble. He was meant to be Vick 2.0.
In 2009, Childress gets the final piece of the puzzle. He can get Vick. And Vick was far better than T.Jack could ever dream of.
Imagine. Vick and Peterson rushing all over the NFC North. Then play action to Berrian. It almost makes too much sense.
T.Jackson Sucks. Ferotte is too old. They need a QB. Vick gets released in 2009.
Vick has reportedly been dominating in flag football in prison. And Arthur Blank, the Falcons owner wants Vick to return to the league anyway.
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David Yeazell 7 months ago
Guess I will comment again.
Everyone seems to be on point about a lot of issues. If I could indulge everyone for a moment.
I DO NOT know what the laws are of each state, but I do know the hunting laws of South Carolina and Ohio.
Those laws say you can apply for a "tag", and with that tag, you are allowed to hunt and kill 1 deer in Ohio, and 6 deer in South Carolina. Basically, as best as the states can, a controlled situation.
The laws of these 2 states DO NOT state anywhere that you can hunt and kill dogs for sport, money, your own personal pleasure, etc etc.
Comparisons are all viable, but based on personal opinion and how we as humans interpret wild, or domesticated animals.
Michael Vick broke the law, he broke it more than 80 times.
It is time for the powers-to-be of professional sports to stand up and say enough is enough. Take a stand on these criminals.
California has a 3 strike law. 3 convictions of any crime and your done. Life in prison.
Professional sports should be so tough.
Dany Heatley killed his teamate. KILLED HIM!! He still plays in the NHL
Ray Lewis was a participant in a double murder. He avoided prosecution by turning on the other two defendants. He admitted to this crime, but was never prosecuted in lieu of testimony. The two other men were never convicted. The two victims, as of today, they are still dead. Ray Lewis was MVP a year later. How sad.
Search the internet, there are so many more convicted felons, some with 2 or 3 convictions, that still play professional sports.
It is out of control, and it needs to stop.
There are no real answers here, and we all have our own opinions about things. But one thing I feel for sure, it is out of control.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
Shane you're an idiot. How can you compare human population growth with animal population growth? What are ten years old? Open a book!! The reason we don't shoot humans is because it is against the law. We are a country protected by laws.
There are laws that distinguish what types of animals are domesticated and which are not. Domesticated animals are considered property in the US and protected by laws. Deer and other wild animals are not protected by these same laws because they are not deemed tame or to have intrinsic value.
The American interpretation of the legal “thinghood” of nonhuman animals was provided by James Kent in Commentaries on American Law (12th ed., 1896). Kent considered any animal regarded as “tame” to be the subject of absolute property.
Vick broke the laws of Virginia by murdering these domesticated animals, not going hunting. He gambled and ran an illegal operation, a felony in Virginia. He is a criminal and ranks with the sexual predators and drug dealers.
I hope he can turn his life around, but I doubt it. He stole millions from fans, his owner and the NFL. I can't imagine his return being a very warm one.
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David Yeazell 7 months ago
We have become a society that doesnt care. Unless, it directly effects you, then we care. Michael Vick doesnt directly effect people with what he did, or at least the majority of people, so they dont care. If he can help a team win, then the fans of that team, and of course the owners, dont care, hire him.
Its all about winning, money and TV ratings, its not about morals, integrity, laws, or for that matter, what the fans want.
If it was, Ray Lewis would be out of a job, but he didnt help kill the brothers, fathers, son's or husbands of any Baltimore fans, team owners, luxury box owners, managers, towel boys, trainers, or season ticket holders, just two obscure men in Atlanta, who are, by the way, still dead.
So, it doesnt matter.
At least Vick picked a state that doesnt have a football team. Well, unless you count the Red Skins.
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Shane H. 7 months ago
I love how people can simply call others names because they have an opinion that rivals what others think. Am I not allowed to think my own thoughts?
I am in no way happy with Vick and his actions. I, myself, would never do such a thing. I feel Vick is an idiot. He was an idiot before all of the dogfighting charges went down. He was frivolous with his money and careless with choosing his friends. He once wrote a check to his mom for $1000 and classified it on the check as "chump change".
Yes, killing humans is against the law. Yes, states determine what animals are "tame" enough to be domesticated. My question is, was someone Dr. Doolittle? Was their someone who spoke to a dog, cat, parrot, etc. and those animals said to domesticate them?
I'm curious to know if you feel Vick's crimes are more heinous than those of the Pakistani gunmen who went wild these last few days in Mumbai?
Everyone should be able to get a second chance or do some kind of rehabilitation. Why are peole trying to keep Vick from trying to redeem himself? I saw someone post that let Vick play and like 95% of his salary goes to some kind of animal charity. That sounds good to me. It was obvious that he wasn't being too smart with his money anyway.
Disagree with my comments, offer your counteraction, but why the name calling?
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
David...you strike the nail on the head, except you left out indifference.
People would rather be one of a million turning a blind eye, instead of being one of one standing up for a societal value. The social morays in 2008 have been shredded to unrecognizable strands by the "me first" value system.
This is the land of second chances, and everyone deserves the opportunity to start over. I think football should be the furthest thing from Vick's mind. His mother deserves a better son, and she should be his number one priority. That poor lady has to be embarrassed that BOTH of her son's are felons and criminals.
“What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.” -Pericles
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Crougar 7 months ago
No murder. No rape. No child molestation. No kidnapping. No hate crimes. No crime against humanity, period.
Animal cruelty. We have nothing else to worry about? No better issues to address? ANIMAL FREAKIN' CRUELTY?! 23 months is plenty. Anything more than that is absurd. What Michael Vick did is so insignificant as compared to the real issues this world right now. It's not a crime against the dogs- it's a crime against the PETA maniacs who care more about furthering THEIR agenda than they do about the dogs themselves. The human race killed and ate animals from the day our species appeared on this planet. Had we held animals equal to ourselves, humans would have disappeared as quickly as they appeared. There is no reason to change that. 100 years ago this conversation would have been laughable. To me, it still is.
Sure, lock him up for 2 more years. I hope you all can sleep at night knowing your precious dogs are safe from that savage monster!
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
PETA has nothing to do with Mike Vick being a scumbag. He did that all on his own. This is the same guy that in 2003 spread herpes to women and went by the alias of Ron Mexico, right? Did you forget that court appearance? This is the influence and role model his brother Marcus emulated before he was expelled from VT and became a felon and washed out of the league, right?
It's jock sniffers like you that can't see that this guy is the next Lawrence Phillips. Good luck cheering for your hero in arena ball....
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Shane H. 7 months ago
i agree with you here Crougar, but, alas, we are idiots according to people like Lucky. It's amazing the world isn't entirely vegetarians.
Man, Danny, look at what you have started with your article. Lol.
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
Good read. Another thing, who cares if he did participate in dog fighting? Did it somehow impact any of our lives? No, so stop worrying about it.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
It impacted the lives of plenty of people. You want the whole list or just the top ten...
The fans from VT that supported him and belived in him and were let down.
The families benefiting from the charities and organizations he created that are in jeopardy of folding due to financial troubles.
The NFL, the Falcons and millions of fans that he let down by committing the crimes.
The lost revenue of vendors and Atlanta businesses that sufferd during the abysmal season last year. The owners of the dogs he stole in the Tidewater area that he used as "bait" for his training.
The men and their families he encouraged to participate in the illegal activities he orchestrated.
Most of all, his mother and family that are disgraced by his actions.
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Michael Inglis 7 months ago
David,
To bring up Ray Lewis the way you did is classless on your part. He was found not guilty and unless you were there on the night in question you don't know anything. There is something called a juistice system in America, and they determined he was not guilty.
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Nathan B 7 months ago
Sorry, I'm not picking on spelling or anything (that's lame, especially in comments), but I thought a "Juice-stus" system would be an appropriate misspelling, considering O.J. Simpson. They determined he wasn't guilty, too, remember?
But actually, I agree with the crux of your comment about Ray Lewis. However, remember the positions he puts himself in that allows the accusations (and charges) in the first place.
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
Lucky, those people shouldn't have stuck their nose in his business, it still shouldn't worry them, he didn't kill their dogs so why should it matter to those families. You should just say that Pac Man Jones is letting everyone down by fighting his bodygaurd then.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
He committed felony crimes, does that part escape you? Read the indictment, he went around to local neighborhoods kidnapping strangers pets and used them for sparring partners.
Innocent pets belonging to other people, and just watched them get torn apart. They never knew what happened. Pets that were loved and cared for and now are dead. You minimize that as isolated and trivial.
He didn't act in a vacuum. If his actions were self inflicted, I wouldn't care. He impacted an entire community and left them standing in his wake of his greed and brutality.
Reading your post, I realize you are not a compassionate person. Good luck and I hope you grow a conscience that extends out beyond yourself.
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Morgan C 7 months ago
T.J., Vick is sick bastard. He put those poor dogs through hell. They suffered and went through great pain. They fought to near death, not to death, so that they could fight again and again until they were to weak to do it anymore. At that point the asshole hung, drown, or electrocuted them to death.
If that does not bother you at all, you have some serious issues.
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
I had a conscience once before I found the great belief of Aristotlean materialism and my own type of hedonism, it makes me happier to live this way than I ever was as an idealist.
Well that's those people's problems not mine or yours, I'm not saying his actions were justified I mean it's against the law, but he served his punishment. Him killing the dogs didn't concern me so oh well, let him play he pulled his way up there and whether he goes back to the NFL or not I could care less unless he goes to the AFC East.
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
I had a conscience once before I found the great belief of Aristotlean materialism and my own type of hedonism, it makes me happier to live this way than I ever was as an idealist.
Well that's those people's problems not mine or yours, I'm not saying his actions were justified I mean it's against the law, but he served his punishment. Him killing the dogs didn't concern me so oh well, let him play he pulled his way up there and whether he goes back to the NFL or not I could care less unless he goes to the AFC East.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
Peace to you T.J...remember, just because you don't care, doesn't make it not your problem.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
Shane...by all means speak your mind that's what this website is all about, but here is why I called your comments idiotic.."It's mind-boggling sometimes. I love dogs but I'm sorry, I would kill one easily before I do in a human being."
I would kill one easily...? Your last post was very balanced and i wish you had led with that one. I regret the name calling that is usually not the way I post.
What determines a tame pet is as old as ancient history. Going all the way back to Egypt and the reverance of cats and dogs. There is no Dr Doolittle, that's silly. It's the intrinsic relationship that animals have with human beings. Go to a cancer center and watch the therapy dogs interact with patients and tell me that's not special.
You sound like a nice guy. Either you get that relationship or you don't. Peace to you Shane.
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RAZOR RAMON 7 months ago
WHY IN THE WORLD IS ALL THIS FUSS OVER DOGS THAT HAVE BEEN KILLED WHEN IN AMERICA OVER 4,000 INNOCENT BABIES ARE ABORTED PER DAY! I SAID IT....PER DAY! WE SLAUGTHER BABIES DAILY AND WE CRY ABOUT THE DOGS! LET THE LORD DEAL WITH HIM, HE WILL HAVE TO ANSWER FOR HIS ACTIONS ONE DAY. TEACH YOUR KIDS NOT TO IDOLIZE THIS MAN AND GIVE VICK ANOTHER CHANCE TO LIVE, JUST AS THE LORD HAS DONE FOR US.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
Abortion isn't agianst the law and dog fighting and illegal gambling is in Virginia. (Actually, it is a class 4 felony, but the right to choose is protected by Roe V. Wade. Therefore the right to an abortion is protected by the Supreme Court.) When Vick starts performing illegal abortions then we'll talk about that on this thread.
You hold human life more valuable than that of a dog... that is your choice. All of "this fuss" is about the man and his actions. He is being judged not by "what he did, but why he did it."
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RAZOR RAMON 7 months ago
********************
That is exactly what is wrong with the world today! Its sad that we don't hold human life as valuable and we are up in arms about the dogs. Giving the right to the mother to choose whether to KILL a baby is protected by the goverment (and mostly paid for by taxpayers) however dog owners choosing to kill gives you jail time! I agree what he did is wrong but don't you think seeing how America is reacting to his poor choices really shows you something is twisted!? I'm not trying to get on a abortion debate, im simply showing how our priorities in this world have went downhill.
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
Lucky how is it my problem that Michael Vick killed dogs?
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
Just because you don't care about something doesn't make it go away. For over 20 years I ignored the AIDS issue in our country and moved through life. Two years ago, a good friend told me he was HIV positive and all of a sudden AIDS became my problem.
Everything that happens impacts us whether we feel it immediately or not. Should we become obsessed and lose sleep over it, of course not. But we are here for a short time and should take care of each other the best we can.
I live by a simple creed..."if I care about a solution, then its my problem."
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Nathan B 7 months ago
Good answer by Lucky. T.J. ... do you know how many people said the "disappearance" of the Jews in Germany-dominated Europe was "not their problem". Guess when it became their problem?
As society unravels, as Vick's actions are but a tiny, tiny example of, it will be your problem. You can choose to ignore all that directly affects you if you like ... until the chickens come home to roost and you have no choice.
Did 9/11 affect you? If not, "it wasn't your problem". But it would be if one of your relatives went to war and died in Afghanistan as a result. Do you not get that concept, or are you just spewing this kind of stuff to create controversy (which would be truly deplorable)?
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
It's not my problem until it effects me. If it impacts the economy, it effects me. If it impacts my family it effects me. If it puts me in physical danger it effects me. If it effects my lifestyle it effects me. Honestly if one of my friends had AIDS I'd be a little bit sad with him but in reality is it my problem that my friend has AIDS? Well if he got AIDS it's his own damn fault for sleeping around and/or using dirty needles and/or blood brothering. I may miss him but it's still not my problem I mean hell, he could've avoided the situation, do I feel kinda' bad? Ya my friend is going to be gone but he caused it.
I know I have what you may call strange or inhumane views but it's just the way I see things. In fact countries like Russia and Iraq can't stand the USA do you know why? No not because they are jealous of our freedom but because we interfere with their problems and try to change what they're doing.
I know I'm much more liberal than most, or all of you. I don't care what choice someone makes unless it effects me.
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Lucky Riff 7 months ago
FYI TJ...my heterosexual friend contracted AIDS through a blood transfusion during surgery while he was travelling abroad. The same way Arthur Ashe contracted the disease. I think this conversation is now complete. Good luck to you.
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Nathan B 7 months ago
You won't know what is your problem until it's too late. Good luck to you T.J.
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Nathan B 7 months ago
And it's "affects", not "effects". Your youthful ignorance will serve you poorly in your adult life, and that has nothing to do with your spelling. It has everything to do with your self-centeredness.
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
It's not my problem until it effects me. If it impacts the economy, it effects me. If it impacts my family it effects me. If it puts me in physical danger it effects me. If it effects my lifestyle it effects me. Honestly if one of my friends had AIDS I'd be a little bit sad with him but in reality is it my problem that my friend has AIDS? Well if he got AIDS it's his own damn fault for sleeping around and/or using dirty needles and/or blood brothering. I may miss him but it's still not my problem I mean hell, he could've avoided the situation, do I feel kinda' bad? Ya my friend is going to be gone but he caused it.
I know I have what you may call strange or inhumane views but it's just the way I see things. In fact countries like Russia and Iraq can't stand the USA do you know why? No not because they are jealous of our freedom but because we interfere with their problems and try to change what they're doing.
I know I'm much more liberal than most, or all of you. I don't care what choice someone makes unless it effects me.
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Morgan C 7 months ago
Wow. It is not always a person's fault when the get AIDS. Doctors are vulnerable to the virus during surgery, babies can get it through birth...
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
It's not my problem until it effects me. If it impacts the economy, it effects me. If it impacts my family it effects me. If it puts me in physical danger it effects me. If it effects my lifestyle it effects me. Honestly if one of my friends had AIDS I'd be a little bit sad with him but in reality is it my problem that my friend has AIDS? Well if he got AIDS it's his own damn fault for sleeping around and/or using dirty needles and/or blood brothering. I may miss him but it's still not my problem I mean hell, he could've avoided the situation, do I feel kinda' bad? Ya my friend is going to be gone but he caused it.
I know I have what you may call strange or inhumane views but it's just the way I see things. In fact countries like Russia and Iraq can't stand the USA do you know why? No not because they are jealous of our freedom but because we interfere with their problems and try to change what they're doing.
I know I'm much more liberal than most, or all of you. I don't care what choice someone makes unless it effects me.
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Danny Burnham 7 months ago
Wow, looks like my little piece instigated quite the discussion. Abortion, why the rest of the world hates America, deer muder, the AIDS epidemic, the Holocaust......Thanks for playing along guys. Now by all means, continue the discussion.
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Nathan B 7 months ago
Don't forget O.J. Simpson, religion, and the existence of God! This is the best thread ever on B/R! ;-)
I have to up your stars just for creating the article that could cause this discussion. =)
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
Well then that was a horrible accident Lucky, sorry for you loss. "Self centerdeness" is what has gotten many a politician into office, it's what creates successful CEOs. Most people that know me would say I'm actually not all that "self centered" I usually help people (if it's convenient for me) and I don't pick fights and I am relatively a very nice guy.At least that is how people who know me describe me. I just don't think that a lot of things have anything to do with me should be my problem. Did Vick kill my dog? No, not my problem, sorry families who lost them but I can't help you. Hey guy with AIDS, sorry you're sick but hey nothing I can do and once again, not my problem. If I had AIDS yes, my case of AIDS is then my problem but is it my problem that somebody else has AIDS? No.
I'm done arguing because all I'm getting from you guys are the same ridiculous arguments like "My friend has AIDS, it's your problem, what if your friend had AIDS?" You know what? What if? What if a flaming clown on a unicycle flew out my ass? "What if?" and hypothetical situations are called hypothetical situations for a reason, you say "What if?" for a reason, hasn't happened. See you guys later and Lucky, sorry for your HIV positive friend, but really, that's not going to help at all to say sorry, goodbye.
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Nathan B 7 months ago
"I usually help people (if it's convenient for me)."
"Self centerdeness [sic] is what has gotten many a politician into office, it's what creates successful CEOs".
So that makes it right? Or desirable? Have you read any books written by CEOs -- because not one of them names "self-centeredness" as the reason they got there. Absolutely ridiculous. I can see how self-centered Bill Gates is -- the most charitable person in the world. Gives money to causes that "don't affect him," [AIDS included] just like many people who can afford to. Being a good person doesn't mean caring about only the things that affect you personally -- I don't know what happened to you in your life to make you believe that, but I do feel sorry for you.
I'm sure you're a better human being in person than you represent yourself by on the internet. That's the nature of the internet, I guess.
I've rarely heard more naive, or selfish, comments, and your age is very obvious.
I guess you'll either learn as you get older and actually experience how life works or you won't, and the world will just have another corrupt politiican, lonely but "successful" CEO, etc., etc.
Maybe if a flaming clown on a unicycle flew out of your ass, at least you'd wake up.
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T.J. Morrill 7 months ago
Yes there are successful and charitable people. What is right is not defined by one person as it is another, same with whether the behavior is desirable. I am pretty open minded and I'm taking some of your words into consideration. Part of the reason Nathan, that I believe what I do is that I've had Mormon and Christian faith forcefully shoved into me and I just can't believe it, it's made me go opposite of those faiths. I think you have brought up some valid points and I will definitely put them to thought. The point I was trying to make at the very start was that we should stay out of celebrities personal lives. I do not condone what Vick did by any means but I just don't care that he did it because I don't have room to talk.
Trust me though, I have had more faith changes than you could ever imagine. I used to be a lot like you guys as far as caring about a lot of other things. I was raised Mormon, got tugged into Christianity, then started studying Hinduism which later on I found just can't be true and then I was an Agnostic and now I am Atheist with hedonistic philosophy. Well I hope not only I can learn something from you but that you can learn something from me, I think perhaps your reasoning needs some work whereas myself I need to obviously work on compassion. I hope we can all get something out of it.
Just one question, if there were two boats full of people, you were on one, and you had a button to get rid of the other boat and they had one to get rid of yours and they would both explode in 1 hour if neither button were pressed, would you push the button. Yes I stole this situation from the Dark Knight but I really would like to know what you would do. I would push the button honestly, not risking my life for the other people.
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Nathan B 7 months ago
I'd get out of the boat and swim -- though I may be one of the three people in the world who haven't seen Dark Knight, so I'm sure I'm cheating. One thing I know that I wouldn't do is push the button.
You show a considerable willingness to hear other viewpoints, so I apologize if I was too harsh in my earlier comments. You originally struck me as someone quite stuck in their (albeit, young) beliefs and not open to reason.
People are definitely going to react to (any) religion being "shoved down their throats", so I can at least appreciate that you are aware of what might have led you to some of your perspectives. If you remain open-minded and continue to search for the truth, I imagine that you will be led to the truth, and Aristotle (who you originally quoted) said that truth was equal to good (the definition of good, actually).
"Not caring because [you] don't have room to talk" is WAY different than "not caring because it doesn't affect [you]." Most any "spiritualism" recognizes that we are not perfect but that we certainly must care about the world around us and the people / animals (in some cases) around us. For if we don't, the evil that occurs to others might easily come to affect us and by the time it does, it may be too late to stop it.
I have been exposed to many religions as well, including Christianity, Islam (Sunni and Shiite as I served and intermingled with populations in both Iraq and Kuwait), Judaism, Hinduism and Mormonism. I've found that all of them, and the holy books in each of them, have amazingly similar concepts of what is "good" -- ideas like compassion, kindness, treating others as you would be treated, justice, being honest and truthful, etc. Parts of the Koran and the Bible are virtually identical -- after all they stem from the same original religion (Judaism).
Pascal, who being a scientist, obviously hung around a lot of Atheists, had an interesting perspective on God that you might consider ... this is a really bad summary, but it went kind of like this: he believed in God because
1) if there wasn't a God and he didn't believe in one -- well, no big deal
2) if there wasn't a God and he did believe in one -- again, no real consequences
3) if there was a God and he believed in him -- success
4) if there was a God and he didn't believe in him -- OOPS
Again, really bad summary, but you get the point. If you like the Dark Knight boat thing, check out what is called the Prisoner's Dilemma -- it will teach you far more about the importance of cooperation vs. selfishness.
Best wishes to you ... this is so far off of the subject now, I'll stop. =)
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michael waters 7 months ago
And I understand where you're coming from. But as Leon said below, if the shoe was on your foot after being in federal prison for two years you'd have to work for years to get your reputation and career back. The fact that this guy has ANY opportunity to get some kind of a career in professional sports back within just a few months of release is more than he deserves. And I'd just like you to think what kind of a man this is. He's a sadist, with a truly diseased mind. Personally he makes my skin crawl. When I picture this fool with a smile on his face, hooting and hollering while some poor hapless dog is mauled to death in front of him, or with a smug grin on his face as he shoots a dog in the head after it loses, I don't give a shit if he ever gets a career back. He's a piece of crap.
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Nathan B 7 months ago
So, who's gonna write the article on whether Plaxico Burress deserves another chance? haha
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C Curry 7 months ago
Why expel Michael Vick from the NFL for Life?
The NFL code of conduct, that is part of the NFL collective bargaining agreement, calls for a lifetime ban for:
1)Any illicit gambling
a)Which Vick freely admits he financed
2)Associating with known gamblers
a)Which Vick freely admits he did
3)Conduct that diminishes the character of said NFL player
a)Dog killing does diminish ones’ public character and Vick does admit to killing 6-8 dogs
4)Conduct the diminishes the good name of the NFL
a) See dog killing above.
Each and every one of the above mentioned conducts by itself could trigger a lifetime ban.
All 4 of them taken together demand that Commissioner Goodell ban Vick for life.
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C Curry 7 months ago
Convick didn't get nearly enough time behind bars.............
Dogfighter tied to Michael Vick gets 13-plus years
CINCINNATI (AP) — A man who authorities say sometimes refereed fights involving former NFL star Michael Vick's dogfighting operation has been sentenced to 13 1/2 years in prison.
Authorities say Terry Kendrick bred fighting dogs in the basement of his Cincinnati home and had connections to dogfighting from New York to Florida to Texas.
Judge Robert Ruehlman said photographs and videos showed mauled dogs and blood-stained rings.
Ruehlman sentenced Kendrick to six years for dogfighting and seven-and-a-half more years for marijuana trafficking. Kendrick apologized in court Monday.
Vick is a former Atlanta Falcons quarterback serving a 23-month prison sentence after pleading guilty to federal charges. He still faces state dogfighting charges in Virginia.
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keith l 4 months ago
this is getting ridiculous, michael vick served his time. All animals over the world are mistreated from fur coats down to good old gator skinned shoes. More then half the people in your neighborhood went to jail for something. Dog fighting is cruel of course but really what do you want done? do u want michael vick dead, lose an arm idk what you guys are expecting the man trained his entire life for football ,you guys might see it as a game but to some thats basically going to college ...i didnt hear ne1 say anything bad about allowing o.j simpson in the hall of fame?..you guys make no sense its ok to make obscene comments about someone you dont know that already did his time through the legal system that now is tryin to make a living at what he does best ...but theres several rapist child molestors out all over ...everyone deserves second chances and no matter what its not up to you guys ..if the lord granted vick forgiveness then forgiveness is what he shall get!...hes an exciting player to watch and i would personally welcome him back into the league...explain to me the concept of ufc fighting? if it wasnt for an offical the men would go till death...
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