Pete Rose is currently among a few others as being listed Major League Baseball's Hall of Fame ineligibility list.
There is reason to believe Barry Bonds is a cheater. Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Jose Canseco—reason to believe those guys are all cheaters.
Pete Rose is a gambler, not a cheater.
Do not misunderstand the point. What Rose did was completely and totally wrong. As a major league manager, betting on baseball games, particularly those of your own team, is a terrible crime.
But why is putting ten-grand down on a baseball game so much worse than injecting one's body with steroids and/or human growth hormones?
Pete Rose was nicknamed "Charlie Hustle" for a reason. The guy brought the head-first slide back into baseball. He ran out every weak ground ball he ever hit. Because he was such a competitor, the guy even ran over catcher Ray Fosse in an All-Star game, causing a collision that sent Rose on the disabled list for the first, and only, time in his career.
Above all else, the "Hit King" set many records in baseball, and so many of them go unnoticed.
First and foremost, Rose holds the league record for most career hits with 4,256. Understood, today a mere hit is not as flashy as a Barry Bonds’ home run, but at one point in time, this record was one of the most cherished in the game.
The list goes on. Pete Rose has played in the most career games of any player (3,562). He has the most career at-bats of any player (14,053). He has the most seasons of 200+ hits (10) and is the only player in MLB history to have played in 500 games at five different positions (1B, 2B, 3B, LF, and RF.)
That is just a fraction of what Pete Rose accomplished on the baseball diamond.
How can anyone sit there and say that Pete Rose’s gambling on baseball games had anything to do with any one of those 4,256 hits?
Rose is one of the greatest baseball players of all time. I challenge you to check out everything the man accomplished in his major league career and then say he is not worthy of being in the Hall of Fame.
There are plenty of "bad guys" in the Hall of Fame, but a seemingly endless grudge against Rose by former Major League Commissioners, and current Commissioner Bud Selig, is ultimately what ended Rose's hopes of reinstatement.
If the biggest alleged cheater in sports—Barry Bonds*—is allowed in the Hall, consider it a felony if Rose is not given another chance, despite his window for making the ballot being slammed shut.
For a league that wants to even their own playing field, they should start by giving Pete Rose what he undoubtedly deserves—a trip to Cooperstown.
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6 months ago
There is a reason that gambling is much worse than steroids. The issue is not now, and should not ever be, one of character. The issue is the integrity of the game of baseball. The goal of every baseball player, on every pitch, every at bat, should be to do whatever is in his power to help his team win. In a perverse way (and please don't view this as an endorsement of PED's), are trying to help their teams win; they are trying to get better, faster, stronger. Someone who gambles, may not be trying to help his team win. He may, in fact, be trying to help his team lose. Actively trying to change the outcome of a game for fiduciary gain is considerably more destructive to the integrity of baseball than PED use.
Why is Barry Bonds the biggest cheater in sports? Is he more of a cheater than other players who took drugs and lied? Or is he just more famous, and more of a jerk?
You talk about his hits. Look, no one. NO ONE, believes that Pete Rose did not have a hall of fame career, that is beside the point.
For the record, I think Pete Rose SHOULD be removed from the banned list, and SHOULD be voted into the HOF, I just think it is incorrect to equate PED use to betting on your own team.
6 months ago
Not that my opinion is important to anyone but me... but. I think that we should allow a more democratic view of this. We should put his name on the ballots for the amount of years that it would have been on there if he hadn't been "black-balled" by the Gestapo in charge. Let the voter's decide if he belongs in the HOF or not. We had McGwire on the ballot this year, we had as much proof of Roses gambling as we do of Macs juicing. Of course we now have more proof on Roses by his own confession. Maybe, given enough time, we will have more concrete proof of Macs juicing. What happens then, if he has been voted in, do we take him back out? I doubt it.
6 months ago
You're showing your youth by demonstrating just how weak of a grasp you have on how serious gambling is. Like the dude above said, nobody argues that Pete Rose wasn't a hall of fame player. But gambling on the game trumps anything anyone can ever do on the field of play. He agreed to the lifetime ban. He signed his name to the papers. There's no crying over it anymore.
6 months ago
I agree with you both. I think cheating and gambling are both are obviously terrible crimes to commit. But as Keith said, if you have guys like McGwire on the ballot, why shouldnt Rose be? Its one of these things that is so open to debate, but as long as Bud Selig is commish, Rose has no shot, I mean no shot, at making the Hall of Fame.
Anon, he cannot win or lose games for his team single handedly, thats hard to do. Plus, he only actually admitted to gambling for two years (although is quite possibly is longer) and there is no evidence he ever bet against the Reds. I am not trying to justify his gambling addictions, but I dont think everything was trumped. But you do make a great point in saying he signed the papers, so obviously he is more guilty than he will allow. Maybe if he had not denied it for all those years things would be different?
6 months ago
I think that he may have been reinstated by now if he hadn't lied all those years. Maybe, maybe not. But he'd definitely come out looking better than he does. America is a forgiving nation - confess, tell the truth, and we'll give you a second chance. Lie to us, and you're dead to us. Pete lied too many times for too long.
Even if Pete is eventually made eligible for the Hall of Fame, and I hope he is, he will NEVER EVER be allowed to work for MLB or any of its teams in any capacity. That much I can pretty much guarantee.
You may not be justifying his gambling addiction, but you sure are rationalizing it. It doesn't matter whether or not he fixed games or bet against his team or bet on his team. It matters that he bet. Period. Betting on the game literally compromises the VERY EXISTENCE of the game as we know it. You place one bet with a street bookie as a player/manager and you're fucked for life. They've got dirt on you and they'll never let you go. God forbid you dig a hole of debt you can't get out of. That's when they start telling you to throw games to pay off your debt. It happened to Tim Donaghy in the NBA. It happens in college basketball far too often, it's happening in tennis right now, and I'm sure people have attempted to make it happen in baseball in the past 20 years.
I personally don't see much value in debating steroids vs. gambling - both are hideous and have no place in sports. But gambling is a much, much worse offense. The reason sports work is because of the public trust in their integrity. If the public isn't convinced that every competitor on each side is giving an honest effor to win, then the sport is dead. Say what you want about roiders, it's all true. But they're trying to win.
6 months ago
Anon - I agree with about everything you said. I dont want to debate steroids vs gambling as well, but the thing I cannot get over is that steroid users will still be in the Hall of Fame. Either let everyone in or keep the cheaters out, but we cant just pick and choose who goes and who does not. But again youre right, Pete will never be in the hall of fame. He has no one to blame but himself for his repeated mistakes.
6 months ago
Anon - I agree with about everything you said. I dont want to debate steroids vs gambling as well, but the thing I cannot get over is that steroid users will still be in the Hall of Fame. Either let everyone in or keep the cheaters out, but we cant just pick and choose who goes and who does not. But again youre right, Pete will never be in the hall of fame. He has no one to blame but himself for his repeated mistakes.
6 months ago
They have punishments in place for various forms of cheating - and until those punishments change, then they will abide by them. Steroids gets you a a 50 game suspension, then a 100 game suspension, then a lifetime ban. Gambling gets you an automatic lifetime ban. Corking your bat usually gets you 10 games - doctoring the ball 15 games, etc. They're all forms of cheating - some are judged as more reprehensible than others, thus the differing punishments.
Everyone in baseball has probably broken a rule or two at some point. There'd probably be no Hall of Fame if "all of the cheaters" were barred from it.
6 months ago
I dont think baseball suspensions are tough enough. If you want to get at guys, you got to burn holes in their wallets.
6 months ago
regardless of betting the guy got all his stats fairly and deserves to be in the HOF. Good article. Great facts and research.
6 months ago
regardless of betting the guy got all his stats fairly and deserves to be in the HOF. Good article. Great facts and research.
6 months ago
Paul, you're ignoring the fact that Pete agreed to a lifetime ban. He signed on the dotted line and agreed that he would be banished for life. He knew that a lifetime ban meant no Hall of Fame. He made his bed, he should have to sleep in it.
from 6 months ago
times change and our way of thinking should change...if bonds gets in..and he will eventually..rose MUST get in
6 months ago
Joe Jackson has not been removed from the so-called Ineligible List, he is still not eligible for election to the Hall of Fame. I also love the following:
"The only difference between the two is that many feel it is indisputable that Jackson threw games"
If you find anyone spewing that forth from their mouth.....turn...and run away....for they know not what they spew forth.....in other words....anyone that is well versed in the Black Sox scandal has doubts about Jackson's performance and his testimony. I challenge anyone to bring me "indisputable" evidence that Jackson threw any games in the 1919 World Series.......cause it doesn't exist...end of subject!!!
Mike Nola
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
http://www.blackbetsy.com/
6 months ago
It's true that all of the Black Sox were acquitted in a court of law, but it's also true that Jackson accepted money from gamblers, confessed to being part of the fix (if only at least knowing of it), and then recanted his confession and continued to deny his involvement until death.
So to respond to your point that no evidence exists - Jackson signed a confession - that should count for something.
from 6 months ago
Jackson was illiterate, so he had no idea what he was signing. His teammates asked him to go in on the scandal, but I'm sure he just wanted to go along with the guys.
He was dumb as a box of hammers, too. He agreed to be in on the scandal, but still played 100%!!!
I'm not sure he knew what was going on.
6 months ago
Mike -
Regardless of what is true or not, it should be noted that the particular sentence you mention was edited by the editor, not something I wrote.
6 months ago
For those of you that never had the pleasure of seeing Pete play....let me give you my view.
He was the biggest f*&^&* scumbag whoever played the game. But I liked him anyway because he played the game hard. He gave you your money's worth. He made it fashionable to give 100% at all times when some players with less at stake mailed it in.
Does he belong in the Hall of Fame? He IS the Hall of Fame!!
But rules are rules. His off-field activities while manager of the Reds will forever keep him out.
Knowing gamblers and gambling as well as I do, I feel its safe to say that Pete not only bet on his team, he probably bet against them, too. He was desperate, and gamblers will do anything when they are desperate...
Baseball will never allow that info to become public because the integrity of the game will be compromised.
Sorry Pete....you're out!!
6 months ago
"Regardless of what is true or not, it should be noted that the particular sentence you mention was edited by the editor, not something I wrote."
Well then...the editor is clueless.....my apologies to you....but the editor knows not of what he edits.
As far as a signed confession......my offer still stands.....bring me the signed confession...although even if you could find such an animal....it wouldn't mean a lot knowing how that signed confession was obtained!!
I love the comment that "Jackson was as dumb as a box of hammers" Where in the heck did you get that non-sense. Understand....I came from the Jackson is as guilty as sin side of the fence to where I am now....so you're not going to throw anything at me that I have not heard in 24 plus years of doing this or that I hadn't already thought of myself.....but Jackson was far from stupid. In fact, Joe got away with a lot of stuff on the field...because other players "thought" he was stupid. So to say "Jackson was as dumb as a box of hammers"...just tells me all I want to know....it actually makes me chuckle!!
Mike Nola
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
6 months ago
"Regardless of what is true or not, it should be noted that the particular sentence you mention was edited by the editor, not something I wrote."
Well then...the editor is clueless.....my apologies to you....but the editor knows not of what he edits.
As far as a signed confession......my offer still stands.....bring me the signed confession...although even if you could find such an animal....it wouldn't mean a lot knowing how that signed confession was obtained!!
I love the comment that "Jackson was as dumb as a box of hammers" Where in the heck did you get that non-sense. Understand....I came from the Jackson is as guilty as sin side of the fence to where I am now....so you're not going to throw anything at me that I have not heard in 24 plus years of doing this or that I hadn't already thought of myself.....but Jackson was far from stupid. In fact, Joe got away with a lot of stuff on the field...because other players "thought" he was stupid. So to say "Jackson was as dumb as a box of hammers"...just tells me all I want to know....it actually makes me chuckle!!
Mike Nola
Official Historian
The Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame Web Site
6 months ago
Mike,
If your response to documented history is always going to be "I don't want to read about evidence, I want to see the evidence - bring the physical evidence to me and show it to me", then there's no point in talking to you anymore because I can't possibly take you seriously. As I'm sure you're aware, this all happened in the early fuckin' 1920's. I'm inclined to assume that the only place you'll find this evidence is in your history books.
I vote we keep the comments on-topic from now on, anyway. Joe Jackson is only of minor relevance to this article. Pete Rose is the topic at hand.
6 months ago
Thats how it is with Pete. You either love him and supprt him for the Hall of Fame or you call him a dirty, rotten cheater and say he should never be allowed in.
John I agree with you that he probably bet against the Reds, but the investigator was quoted in his official report stating, "no evidence was discovered that Rose bet against the Cincinnati Reds."
Regardless, any argument is moot, so I have no clue where I would go with that anyone. Like I said before, he can only point the finger at himself. But, then again, what cheater can point the finger at anyone but him/her self?
6 months ago
I grew up in Cincinnati and love Pete Rose as a player. I didn't see him play much since I was born in '80 but I've read enough and seen plenty of old tapes to know that he was a hell of a player. But I'm also a firm believer in personal responsibility and accountability.
I must be an exception to your rule, then. I love Pete Rose and DON'T support his Hall of Fame candidacy. That doesn't mean that I support his exclusion from the Hall of Fame, either. I support being a man, sticking to your word, and being accountable for your actions. Since he agreed to the ban, he and his fans have nothing to whine about. It was so important for him to NOT admit to his crimes against baseball that he signed an agreement effectively banning him from the game for life without admitting guilt to anything.
If he gets in one day, hell, I'll try my best to attend the ceremony. But you won't find me campaigning for him. No one made him sign the papers.
6 months ago
Fair enough...
6 months ago
>>> But you won't find me campaigning for him. No one made him sign the papers. <<<
Well I don't know if I can agree with that. Have you ever heard Pete Rose talk? He's as dumb as a box of hammers!... LOL
6 months ago
I think all everyone in this string - including me - is as dumb as a box of hammers
Stop the Pete Rose insanity!!! He was hated in every National League city (including, no - especially Cincinnati)
He was a great player but a not a good guy
As the General said in the original Planet of the Apes
"the only good human ....is a dead human!!!'
of course that has nothing to do with this, but I find it to be amusing
6 months ago
ok john thanks for the input. you're a huge cock-slurping faggot.
from 6 months ago
Thanks....
6 months ago
don't mind the stupid morons who are dissing you... I'm a Reds fan, so I'm kinda biased towards saying he should be in... nice article though.
6 months ago
Without a doubt, the Hall of Fame is a joke and a sham until Rose's enshrinement. This is not a black and white issue. Banning him from baseball shouldn't be linked to the hall of fame. Was he betting on baseball when he was a player or only when he became a manager only? It's 2 different periods in his baseball career.
Although he agreed to a liftime ban, didn't he think that it could be reversed? Was HOF exclusion even mentioned at that time? Criminals with serious offenses have pardons, parole, probation, and commuted sentances. C'mon, this is baseball, not real life.
There's no argument that he's among the best ever (All-Century Team) and better than most of those in the hall. There's no argument that the hall of fame already has many cheats, drug-abusers, alcohol abusers, racists, and people of ill temper, and more trying to get in.
Today, MLB forgives the alcohol and drug abusers or looks the other way. Remember Steve Howe. Isn't gambling an addiction also?
He has mare than one fault, I admit, but you’re screwing with the game when you exclude him. The grudges should be dropped so he can be enshrined while he's still alive.
6 months ago
personally i have the mindset of Al Davis...I dont give a flying rats a** what rose did he won games and he hit the ball better than any one in his time. He belongs in the hall end of discussion.
6 months ago
To Anonymous......if you want ME to take you seriously....stop posting anonymously!!! I don't need to see the physical evidence as you call it.....just SOME evidence that points to Jackson being as guilty as you make him out to be. I have never subscribed to the"Saint Joe" theory.....I believe Joe knew something was going on, but on the same note, so did a lot of other people that were never charged with anything and four come to mind that are in the Hall of Fame. Again, I believe Joe knew something was going on, he just chose not to participate in it and to live by the code of the day (you don't rat on your friends without hard evidence that something is wrong). Jackson did not have enough evidence to go to anyone and even if he had of, no one would have believed him...game fixing was commonplace in those days, but no one in their right mind would have believed you could fix an entire series. In the mindset of the day, it simply could not be done. If you think me asking someone to bring me evidence about this case is stupid....then you're right...we don't need to talk any further......but stupidity believes what it reads in history books and I certainly can't change that sort of mindset. OK...sorry guys....I'm outta here...let ya get back to your Pete Rose is a great guy thread :-)
6 months ago
OK Mike you dumb shit, I don't know what the hell you mean when you say Joe wasn't "as guilty as I'm making him out to be". All I ever stated were the facts. I never said he threw games or anything else. I only stated facts. In the words of Kennesaw Mountain Landis when he bounced Joe's retarded ass from baseball:
"Regardless of the verdict of juries, no player who throws a ball game, no player who undertakes or promises to throw a ball game, no player who sits in confidence with a bunch of crooked ballplayers and gamblers, where the ways and means of throwing a game are discussed and does not promptly tell his club about it, will ever play professional baseball."
Now go fuck yourself and your Shoeless Joe Jackson anatomically-correct blowup doll.
3 months ago
Pete should be in the Hall. His stats on the field should be all that matters. Mickey Mantle was involved with a casino and never got banned, and was aslo a drunk, but people still love him. The fact that pete might of bet against his team while being the manager is somewhat disturbing, but so is being a drunk and neglecting your kids.
3 months ago
2 important missing points:
1) Pete Rose has never been accused of betting against his own team.
2) Pete Rose has never been accused of betting on baseball at any time during his playing career.
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