Liverpool Football Club are in a mess, that is something we can all agree on isn't it?
The mess is, in the main, financial in nature. But the off field problems seem to have infected the playing side too.
The team are struggling to find form and are losing players to injuries they are haemorrhaging confidence and belief and it could yet be fatal to their battle for survival in the Premier League.
Now that is something I never thought I would write, Liverpool in a battle for Premier League survival.
Wow, that really does sound wrong doesn't it?
No club has a divine right to be successful or to remain at the top because of their history but Liverpool, along with Manchester United and Arsenal are simply expected to be there at the end of each season.
We expect these clubs to be in Europe and to win things.
But that view seems to be a way off for Liverpool.
But Manchester United fans are also less than comfortable with their clubs ownership and the debt's that their money helps service.
United are secure for now as the revenue the clubs generates is massive and the profits easily cover the debt repayment schedule. Or at least that's what we are told.
But on the playing side things are not much better.
Wayne Rooney has publicly contradicted his manager, Sir Alex Ferguson about an ankle injury that Rooney now claims didn't exist and he doesn't know why SAF said it did.
That is something we don't expect from a United player as SAF has a vice like grip on his players doesn't he?
Apparently not if the Vidic saga from the closed season is anything to go by. Vidic held out for a better deal, a much better deal than SAF thought he deserved.
Vidic called United's (SAF's) bluff and won, he got the improved deal HE wanted.
And now the unhappy Rooney, United's star asset is showing signs of 'doing a Beckham' - he is going to tell it as it is in public irrespective of what his manager threatens him with.
Of course it may be a blip, but I don't think so.
I think we are now seeing the first signs of SAF losing control of the top players in his squad.
His bluff is being called and because of the financial situation the club is in SAF will be on the losing side of these arguments.
So could we see both Liverpool and United both struggle this season.
Instinct says that that cannot happen.
But if Liverpool's current plight shows us anything can happen.