That's a pretty bold question, but I think next season's UNC team ranks among the most talented collection of college players ever to be assembled. Let's look at the facts:
- This past season, UNC made it to the Final Four.
- UNC is losing just two players (Quentin Thomas and Alex Stepheson) who averaged just 16 and 15 minutes per game respectively. They ranked 7 and 8 among minutes played.
- UNC is gaining four players. Two of which are ranked among the top 15 incoming freshmen and one that is in the top 50. Three were McDonald's All-Americans.
- UNC loses a backup point guard and backup power forward, but gains a top 15 point guard, No. 11 overall power forward, No. 12 overall 7-foot center, and an unrated shooting guard who averaged 22 points a game last year.
- UNC gains a healthy Bobby Frasor.
- UNC returns the consensus National Player of the Year in Tyler Hansbrough.
- UNC has one of the top three best point guards in Ty Lawson.
Here is the depth chart:
Point Guard:
- Ty Lawson
- Bobby Frasor
- Larry Drew
Shooting Guard:
- Wayne Ellington
- Danny Green
- Will Graves
- Bobby Frasor
- Justin Watts
Small Forward:
- Marcus Ginyard
- Danny Green
- Will Graves
Power Forward:
- Tyler Hansbrough
- Ed Davis
- Danny Green
Center:
- Deon Thompson
- Tyler Zeller
The starting five is unchanged from last season:
- Ty Lawson
- Wayne Ellington
- Marcus Ginyard
- Tyler Hansbrough
- Deon Thompson
The second five is probably a top 25 team too:
- Bobby Frasor
- Will Graves
- Danny Green
- Ed Davis
- Tyler Zeller
What about the 2004-2005 UNC team? They are probably the best comparison to next season's team:
Starting 5:
- Ty Lawson vs. Ray Felton (my pick: Lawson - when healthy)
- Wayne Ellington vs. Rashad McCants (my pick: McCants, no-brainer)
- Marcus Ginyard vs. Jackie Manuel (my pick: Ginyard, no-brainer)
- Tyler Hansbrough vs. Jawad Williams (my pick: Hansbrough-POY)
- Deon Thompson vs. Sean May (my pick: May)
Second 5:
- Bobby Frasor vs. Quentin Thomas (my pick: Frasor)
- Will Graves vs. Wes Miller (my pick: Graves)
- Danny Green vs. Reyshawn Terry (my pick: Green)
- Ed Davis vs. David Noel (my pick: Noel, until Davis proves me wrong)
- Tyler Zeller vs. Marvin Williams (my pick: Williams, until Zeller proves me wrong)
That's six picks for the 08-09 team and four for 04-05. There is a very good chance Ed Davis will be a stud and be better than David Noel. There is only a slight chance Tyler Zeller will be better than Marvin. So there is a good chance my picks would go 7-3, and that's compared to a national championship team!
Let me caveat this brief analysis by emphasizing one word: talent. I did not say the best team in college basketball. I wouldn't even make that claim for next season. This past season, UNC was arguably the most talented, and we know how that went.
Just as we heard so much talk this year and in 2004-05, everyone wonders how a team with so much talent will gel. With three players seriously looking at the NBA this year, and one of whom got into trouble off the court, there are questions about chemistry next season.
Will Danny continue to remain satisfied being the best sixth man in the country? Will Bobby Frasor and Will Graves get more significant minutes?
How well the team takes advantage of its talent will dictate how successful they will be. We won't know until the end of next season.
The one question we can tackle now is which team is the deepest and has the most talent. My vote is for UNC 08-09 being among the most talented in the last 20 years.
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2 months ago
I agree 100% The Heels are gonna win it in '09!
2 months ago
1995-1996 Kentucky Wildcats?
Tony Delk, Nazr Mohammed, Antoine Walker, Walter McCarty, Ron Mercer, Derek Anderson, Mark Pope, Jeff Sheppard and Wayne Turner all played in the NBA. They beat their opponents by an average of 22 points, lost two games (both to other Final Four teams), and had a sagarin rating of 103.26. That rating is higher than Bob Knight's undefeated Indiana team and the 90-91 UNLV team. Rick Pitino said that his bench could have won the title that year.
2 months ago
That was a good team Joe, but IMO they played really good team ball and overachieved individually. UK had only 4 McDonald's All-Americans compared to UNC's 8. Kentucky had 7 players drafted in the first 2 rounds of the NBA Draft. I think UNC will have 7 pretty easily and maybe more.
Regarding the sagarin rating, again, I'm talking the most individual talent, not the "best" team.
from 2 months ago
I've got be honest with you. I was really hoping that Hansbrough and the others would have gone pro at the end of last season. I'm not looking forward to facing that team at Ford Field this season. Not at all.
2 months ago
2006 & 2007 Florida Gators? Noah, Horford, Brewer, Humprey, Green. 3 1st rounders right there. Not to mention 2 rings to go along with that. Go Gators!!!
from 2 months ago
3 out of the first 9 picks in the draft. Ridiculous amount of talent on that team.
When your 6th man gets drafted, your squad is pretty darn good.
from 2 months ago
I take the Florida Gators squads as well. They may not have the depth that UNC has this year, but if you could match the two teams up, I think UNC gets smacked.
from 2 months ago
It truly amazes me the lack of respect that the 2006-2007 Gator teams get. All 5 starters averaged 10+ points for two straight years. Then Florida had the best Big Man Tandem in the history of college basketball in Noah and Horford. Then throw in Lee Humphrey, who currently holds the NCAA Tournament record for 3 pointers made. Corey Brewer was capable of shutting down anyone in college basketball. No way that Carolina is better than those teams.
from 2 months ago
All of you Florida fans are missing the point. I didn't say which team is better. As I pointed out in the article, I wouldn't even make the claim that UNC will be the best team next year. I'm just saying they are the most talented. Kinda like the USA Olympic team has had the most talent in recent years, but that didn't necessarily mean they were the best internationally.
Was the back-to-back Florida team more talented? No way. Sure they had a lot of talent, but nothing like UNC has top-to-bottom (more top 20 recruits, more McDonald's All-Americans, etc.). And if you'll recall, UNC has the best player in the nation returning this year ;-) I'd take him over Noah any day.
UNC could easily have 7 players on this year's team go in the NBA draft at some point. The 04-05 UNC team had 4 players go in the top 14 spots. Regarding the sixth man comment, UNC's sixth man that year (Marvin Williams was the #2 overall pick), so I'm not that impressed Florida's sixth man getting drafted.
from 2 months ago
Robbie, if you are talking strictly about high school rankings, then fine, but Florida was pretty stacked themselves.
Here is every reason that you need to see why the Gators were more talented:
1. Big Men and Height
The reason that I take the Florida teams over UNC is that there is no way that UNC would match Florida down low. This is the reason why Florida would run UNC out of the gym. Florida assembled more talent down low than any other team ever has. Noah, Horford, Richards, and Speights trump any front court ever assembled in college basketball. Florida had three first round draft picks in the post and all of them were over 6'10". UNC does not have a single player that is taller than 6'9" on the roster.
Florida would hypothetically have a height advantage of at least 2 inches and sometimes 4 inches at SF, PF, and C. Noah would eat Hansborough's lunch. If it is true that Hansborough is really only 6'7" as opposed to 6'9" then Noah, who holds the NCAA Tourney record for blocked shots, would have had a 4 inch height advantage over Hansborough. That would not bode well for Hansborough. Hansborough works hard, but I have to question his talent. Noah was a workhorse as a player too. The amount of hustle would be even, but Noah dominates because he simply has Hansborough's skill set plus 4 inches of height.
Who guards Horford and who guards Brewer? No one on the NC roster could do it.
Additionally you have the problem with matching up with Brewer, who stands at 6'9". If your PF is shorter than the other team's short forward then you are in trouble. UNC has offensive talent, but they do not have two defenders that are better than Noah and Brewer. Brewer was a shut down defender like I have never seen. Just ask Aaron Afflalo.
2. Florida was very deep too.
Florida had the best sixth man in the country, a future lottery pick, and a guy that was shooting 50% from the three point line all sitting on the bench. It is pretty tough to beat those 8 players in talent.
3. Florida shot the ball better
Two starters shot over 40% from the 3 point line. A reserve was shooting 50% from the 3 point line. UNC did not have a single player that was a significant contributor shoot over 40% from the 3 point line.
4. Two NCAA Tourney MVPs, the should have been NBA rookie of the year that lead the Hawks to Game 7 against the NBA champs, and the record holder for 3 pointers made in the NCAA Tourney all on one team. And the best part is that none of those players were the leading scorer. Taurean Green was. Enough said.
2 months ago
Most talented team in the nation for sure. Watch out for UConn, though.
2 months ago
While I'm on board with you saying that UNC is going to have monster talent coming back this season and ought to be considered the prohibitive favorite next year. They may very well have some talented freshmen too, let's not be too hasty with the comparisons to an excellent 2004-2005 team.
"The second five is probably a top 25 team too."
Whoa there buddy. That second five is very, very good. Probably the best second five in all the land. Is it better than 25 other teams? I very seriously doubt it.
Don't confuse my concern as hating - UNC is a great team, let's just be patient before crowning them.
And a big thanks to you for the stat comparison. Being a stat-head myself, I like tools that can use them quickly and effectively.
from 2 months ago
Thanks for the comment Ben. Why would you doubt the second team being top 25 worthy? They have 4 McDonald's All-Americans and while they are a little on the inexperienced side, their raw talent would probably be close to a top 10 team.
from 2 months ago
I'm going to throw out these top 10 teams:
http://thesportsflow.blogspot.com/2008/07/early-2008-2009-college-basketball.html
and put the burden of proof on you to tell me which of these teams you could beat with those five.
You've got four unprovens (Bobby Frasor before knee surgery: proven, after knee surgery: not so much) and a very talented, but somewhat inconsistent Green. Although, I will grant you that Green might be the best player on the team if he was more consistent.
While I you've got a great second five there - and don't get me wrong, they all can play - I would take the starting five from any of those teams over that second five.
Needless to say, though, it IS an embarrassment of riches by the fact that we're even having this debate, no?
2 months ago
Maybe most talented, but not best team. UNC didn't play a lick of defense last season, which was exposed by the Jayhawks in the Final Four. They just happened to outscore most of the teams they played. With the same folks comin back, expect more of the same. They may not win the ACC, with Duke, Wake, Clemson, and Miami improving this year. Definitely not the best team ever--no question.
2 months ago
Not the most talented and not the best. First, they need to win a championship to be in the conversation of the best. Both Memphis and Kansas were more talented than UNC last year.
UNC best player isn't even a great athlete (Tyler Hansbourgh), he's just a workhorse.
from 2 months ago
Michael, if you'll recall, UNC's best player happens to be the reining CONSENSUS National Player of the Year. You don't get that just because of being a workhorse. How many "average athletes" can do 360 jams during a game as Hansbrough did a couple of times last year??
from 2 months ago
And yes Memphis and Kansas were more talented last year, but this is for the upcoming season, not last season.
from 2 months ago
Matt: Kansas was the only team to give UNC a run for the money in the talent department last year. Obviously they kicked their butts in the Final Four which is exactly my point about being good vs being talented.
Regarding Memphis, there is no way they were more talented. To me, a big part of being the most talented team has to do with how deep you are. Memphis was not that deep. Their top 3/4 were really good, but they had a big drop off after that.
2 months ago
Then why is the article titled "Is North Carolina the most talented team in the last 20 years?" You're wrong on this one matt.
If anyone thinks the 2008-2009 UNC basketball team is the most talented team in the last 20 years then you're smoking something.
Robbie, you're proving my point. Hansbrough is a great player, but not a great athlete. That's why if hansbrough came out in the draft last year he would've been a mid 1st round pick at best. Just becasue you're the consensus Nat Player of the year doesn't mean you are a world class talent. O.J. Mayo didn't but up the numbers that hansbrough did but Mayo is more talented.
Robbie, I didn't say he was an average athlete, Im just saying he's not super talented like Mayo, Carmelo, or Chris paul.
from 2 months ago
"If anyone thinks the 2008-2009 UNC basketball team is the most talented team in the last 20 years then you're smoking something."
That's not a compelling argument Michael. How about at least a couple of stats to back up who you think is the most talented team??
Regarding your "great athlete" statement, how exactly do you define being a "great athlete"?? And are there only a couple of those people every year? Hansbrough can do 360 jams, he's one of the most agile big men in the country and is one of the strongest. Is vertical leap how you qualify "great athlete"?? And why was Hansbrough nominated for the "Best Male College Athlete" ESPY if he is just an average athlete?
2 months ago
I guess you are smoking something.
You're really stuck on this 360 jam aren't you? The best evidence will be when he goes pro and isn't a superstar like he is in college. You'll just have to wait and see. Why do you think hansbrough didn't go pro this year? One reason might be to win a NCAA championship, another was because he wasn't even going to be a lottery pick. Scouts and coaches know he isn't a great athlete, you should learn it too. Being a UNC fan you should watch them play some, everytime I hear experts talk about hansbrough they all say he's out hustles and out plays everyone on the court, BUT he's not a super talented athlete. It's obvious watching him play. Don't let your bias confuse the truth.
You really think this upcoming UNC team in the most talented in the last 20 years? Come on, this is a joke.
2002 syracuse - Carmelo, McNamarra, Warrick
2006 and 2007 UF - Noah, Horford, Brewer
2001 Duke - Williams, Boozer, Dunleavy.
2003 UConn - Okafor, Gordon, Villanueva, Williams, Armstrong.
I would take the 2005 UNC team over the 2008.
I could name other. Are you really using the ESPYs as support for your argument. You should listen better too, I just said he ISN'T an average athlete, he just isn't a freak of an athlete. He's not going to wow you with his athletsism. Obviously the only reason you think he is a great athlete is because he's won the Naismith award. That award is based on STATS, and playing on a good team. Just like the MVP in the NBA. Are you going to tell me Steve Nast (two time winner) is the most talented player in the NBA? He isn't but he won the award based on stats and playing on a good team.
Im going to quote from a scout here, "One of Hansbrough's most glaring weaknesses is that he isn't a superior athlete ... He doesn't show much vertical explosiveness and lacks super quickness."
Here's another scout's quote: "Hansbrough’s intensity and effort will definitely transfer over to the NBA with him. However, he needs to get quicker and more athletic (if that is even possible) to become as dominant in the NBA as he is in college."
from 2 months ago
> I guess you are smoking something.
I must be to continue to respond to your comments when they are so clearly lacking in any substantive content.
Quick suggestion: try reading my article. For each of the team's you name as more talented than the 08-09 UNC team, you list 3 or 4 players. Being the "most talented" doesn't mean you have 2 or 3 really good players. My point is that top to bottom, UNC has more talent than any other team. In your joke of an analysis, try to compare 10 players from those teams with the top 10 players from UNC.
Thanks for your quotes from "scouts". Really informative. To become as dominant in the NBA as he is in college means he'd need to be in the running for MVP every year.
2 months ago
I don't dislike Hansbrough or UNC, it's just obvious he isn't a great athlete. You can say a lot of good things about him like, leader, hard worker, brings it every game, mature player, good FT shooter, and good rebounder.
He just isn't wowing anyone with his talent.
from 2 months ago
So now he isn't a "great athlete" nor is he "wowing anyone with his talent". I thought we were talking about athleticism, but you are also talking about talent now (they are two different things in case you aren't clear).
I'm going to stop responding to you Michael because you've stated that Steve Nash and Tyler Hansbrough don't have a lot of talent. Wow.
2 months ago
-Michael and Robbie. Chemistry-wise im not sure, but the Uconn 2004 team had the most talent:
Ty Lawson Vs Talek Brown (Lawson)
Wayne Ellington Vs Ben Gordon (Ben Gordon No-Brainer)
Marcus Ginyard Vs Denham Brown (Denham Brown)
Tyler Hansbrough and Deon Thompson Vs Okafor and Josh Boone (Okafor and Josh Boone, both starting NBA)
Its hard to pick matchups correctly but this top-25 caliber team:
Bobby Frasor
Will Graves
Danny Green
Ed Davis
Tyler Zeller
Could not beat the the 2004 Uconn Bench (3 first round draft picks, former aac rookie of the year, and Rashad Anderson: Godlike from the 3 during the 2004 tourny. Scored 6 threes against alabama in the regional final, averaged 18 points per game up until the final four, and did well against Duke and Georgia Tech (I just dont know the figures)
Marcus Williams
Rashad Anderson
Ed Nelson
Charlie Villanueva
Hilton Armstrong
2 months ago
Since this line, "My point is that top to bottom, UNC has more talent than any other team. In your joke of an analysis, try to compare 10 players from those teams with the top 10 players from UNC,"
still bothers me, Ill make things more simple since Im bored at work. You can review this in a few years when UNC kids graduate. NBA draft a good measure of talent? Thats ur decision.
Uconn 2004 had
#2 Draft Pick 2004 Okafor
#3 Draft Pick 2004 Gordon
#7 Draft Pick 2005 Villanueva
#12 Draft Pick 2006 Hilton Armstrong
#22 Draft Pick 2006 Marcus Williams
#23 Draft Pick 2006 Josh Boone
#40 Draft Pick 2006 Denham Brown
And the three supporters
Talek Brown- Quick veteran 4 year pg.
Rashad Anderson- Surprised he wasnt draft. Best Uconn 3 point shooter while in college, ever (including Ray Ray). He only really played 2 seasons, 2004 and 2006, almost died in 2005. With this limited time, being a bench player both years, he managed to score the most career Uconn 3 pointers at 276.
Ed Nelson- The most unselfish team player. AAC Basketball rookie of year. Tried to go pro in football. His defensive skills were way above average.
from 2 months ago
Good one! That's actually the best comparison I've seen yet. I think UNC will have at least 7 players from this year's team go in the NBA Draft (at some point). Maybe 8. Let's see how some of the sophomores improve this year. That will determine if they pose a better matchup. And I think the second 5 from UNC could potentially have 3 NBA Draft picks too, so it isn't so clear to me that the Uconn 04 bench could beat them.
2 months ago
I seem to always argue with biased people. If you don't know that Hansbrough isn't a great athlete then you can live in ignorance.
I like how you take 1 sentence out of the 25-30 sentences that I wrote and say I'm not making a compelling argument. Nice job taking things out of context.
You obviously don't have the intellectual capibility to understand comparisions. You said he is a great athlete because he won the Naismith award, which is equivalent to the MVP in the NBA. Got it so far?
Steve Nash won the MVP (TWICE) so does that mean Nash is the best athlete in the NBA? Off course he isn't. Same with Hansbrough, just because he won the Naismith award doesn't mean he's a super athlete. Get it? You probably don't.
Obviously anyone with a brain know he's isn't a great athlete. The scouts know it, experts know it, but i guess you're smarter than all of us.
2 months ago
Here's another scouts analysis: "The problem with Hansbrough when it comes to the NBA is his height and his athleticism. Although he’s listed at 6-foot-9, the common thinking in NBA circles is he is actually closer to 6-foot-7. Hansbrough isn’t much of an athlete, which could become more obvious on the NBA level.
An NBA team in the first round will likely give Hansbrough a chance but he’s going to have to prove a lot of scouts wrong to become successful. He’s viewed as much more Eduardo Najera than Kevin McHale."
But I guess you're still right. . .
2 months ago
Robbie you like to twist words, quote me where I said steve nash doesn't have a lot of talent.
I said he isn't the most talented player in the NBA, which everyone will agree with.
Stop twisting words and taking things out of context. Wake up and realize that Hansbrough isn't a great athlete.
2 months ago
Michael: you are the one that says things three different ways and isn't clear with any of them. I'm fine if you don't want to comment on my articles anymore. I promise not to comment on yours :-)
2 months ago
Well if you can't understand then that's your problem. It's pretty clear. Let me hear your opinion in a few years when Hansbrough isn't a star in the NBA.
Guess you couldn't come up with the quote either.
2 months ago
This is an absurd article without data and statistics to substantiate the claim. Another reason you don't give matches to children who live in tinderboxes, it's dangerous to those in the vicinity of the consequences of your actions. Support to the article thesis is subjective fan talk and can't be seriously considered as relevant to the title.
Statements to a reader who doesn't agree with your hypothesis should encourage the give and take of ideas, not try to suppress the reader from commenting on your writing as you have done with Michael.
2 months ago
Hey Baby, you got one thing right. This article (like virtually every other editorial) is subjective. That's the whole point. Sorry that I didn't replicate the full list of stats for each player. That's why I included links to StatSheet.com. Did you see that? I'm not going to spoon feed everything to you. I expect at least some basic knowledge of the game.
Comments like yours and Michaels are what I think are absurd. In my article I try to make a case. You can agree or disagree, but I gave plenty of facts. Your comment has no content. You just say "I disagree" and go on to say derogatory things. How exactly does that refute my original article? It cracks me up when people say "that article is wrong" and give NO supporting evidence. THAT is "subjective (and rather ignorant) fan talk" if I've ever seen it.
I happily welcome comments that add something to the discussion. See the comment above from Andrew. Every comment from Michael (and now you) add nothing to the discussion and in fact act as a distraction because it is content-less.
2 months ago
dude my name is josh wright also quit pricketten it out and understand that if ty, tyler and wayne is back aint nobody gonna touch it. and i bet butch takes hakeem and the heels to a chance at the division but clemson might be a handfull. either way we beat state again.
2 months ago
UNC of 08-09 may be extremely talented- the bottom line is it doesn't matter if they don't get the job done.
Talented and good are different, but you could argue that UNC of 07-08 was both also.
We've all seen how "talented" guys like Hansbrough, Lawson, Ellington and Green are, but UNC was obviously not the best team last year with those guys as the core, which was easy to tell after we all saw Kansas absolutely tear them apart in the Final Four.
I see what you're going for in this article, but we don't really talk about "talented" teams over the past 20 years or however many years unless they were also good enough to win the title.
With the exception of Giants-Patriots in the most recent Superbowl, it's only the Champions that get remembered.
UNC may be picked to win the national title once again because of their "best in X years talent", but, they were in 07-08 too, weren't they? And it actually turned out that they weren't the best OR talented team-- maybe not even second best.
They may do it this year, but, just like last year, I won't believe who is the best TEAM until the trophy is raised once again.
Talented and good are different, but as Kansas showed us in the 2008 March Madness, having BOTH is the key, and UNC will have to prove it this year by raising the trophy at the end to get any kind of this recognition.
2 months ago
Sean,
I recommend you read the article. I make the distinction about the difference between "good" and "talented".
2 months ago
It shows how talented this team is when Danny Green (who could start at a LOT of other schools) is the 6th man.
about 1 month ago
Robbie,
I recommend you read my post. I explain how it just doesn't matter if they are so "talented" if and when they don't get the job done.
about 1 month ago
Robbie,
I recommend you read my post. I explain how it just doesn't matter if they are so "talented" if and when they don't get the job done.
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