Those who can - start. Those who can’t - relieve.
Jan. 4, 2009
Washington, DC
Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Doc Gooden, or Nolan Ryan (all power pitchers) could have each gone to the pen and dominated too but they were too well suited as Starters.
It seems as though the second lowest ERA in the American League is not good enough for some to admit that Joba Chamberlain is an ace's ace and should be one of the staples of the Yankee rotation.
Nor does the fact that he took down Josh Beckett in his rookie year during a nail biter of a game that Joba won 1-0; against one of the most successful pitchers around. Never mind the fact that he did it against the rivaled Red Sox and in hostile territory.
See the recap here where it was said that, "(Joba) is what (the Yankees) have been waiting for as a starter."
Joba has a crippling combination of pitches; including a blazing heater clocked as high as 100 (at 22 years old), the best slider in ball and a "nose to toes" curve ball scary enough to make grown men look like little girls half swatting and half avoiding a scary bug. You know the move. Finally he has a change up, just to keep opponents more confused.
Here is some refresher information: Joba went 3-1 as a starter with a 2.76 ERA. As a reliever, he went 1-2 with a 2.63.
- IN case you are a little confused, its a bad thing for a reliever to get a win or a loss - especially when one's only used in tie situations or when with the lead.
SO where would you say that he has more success or is more effective for a team?
As a reliever, Joba is only used when the Yankees have a lead and the Yankees poor offense (who scored 200 fewer runs in '08 than in '07) rarely afforded them the typical lead going into late innings.
In April of last year the Yankees suffered through nine games (nine!) without using Joba and he earned two out of three losses by the end of May, when he was "the best reliever in the game."
It seems as though the mass media outlets need to stir up a little controversy for circulation and thus they're at Joba Chamberlain once again, despite the Yankees already stating that Joba WILL start 2009 in the rotation.
"He would be the best reliever in the business," they cry. Talk about overkill and exploiting one's talent.
But I'll play along: since Joba is going to the pen, then we can also make A-Rod a leadoff hitter. He would be the best in the business after all.
Joba Chamberlain is too good to be a relief pitcher. Those that can - start.
Techniques to keep Joba injury free and hurling fire...
As Nolan Ryan had just finalized his four year contract as the Texas Ranger's Team President this off season, he gave the baseball world food for thought, especially regarding pampered pitchers.
"To me, it's a matter of physical conditioning, and then you get into the area of mental toughness. That's what we're trying to address now."
This is a man who has thrown more than 200 complete games and once threw six complete games at the age of 42. His entire team threw six complete games last year.
As of right now, Ryan is seeking to do away with the pitch count in its entirety saying, "the only time I was on a pitch count was when I was injured."
He is of the mind that pitchers are being too pampered to avoid injuries, so much so that it hurts the team, not helps it.
1.) Ryan's answer? Work out harder and then when you're out there a long time, it doesn't feel as though your tired at all. His new motto is to have his pitchers out last the other teams starter. A little bit of the 1980s flare would be sound advice nowadays.
Ask Andy Pettitte about "mild tendinitis" and mental toughness, who probably takes Advil for pain, an anti-inflammatory. Then again, Pettitte's a veteran gamer who the Yankees will hopefully bring back to the new stadium.
Tendinitis is something that many pitchers and catchers have battled for as long as baseball was first played by Abner Doubleday.
It's not a torn ligament, but a sore one. It's almost like when a weightlifter works out for that "burn;" in reality, he is tearing his muscle fibers, which is the pain or burn experienced.
Joba is already on a work-out routine, as he described it given him by Clemens. He lost weight last year as result of just beginning his new work out program. He should have a stronger arm in 2009 as result.
2.) Joba could learn to control the urge of overthrowing the pill, just like most young pitchers do too. Just like in golf when one tries to juice the ball off the tees, eventually he will tire of looking in the woods for it and then learn how to be consistent and in the fairway.
Don't over-swing, instead let it be natural; the result is surprising. The ball still goes as far as when the golfer swings out of his shoes at it; but by keeping the mechanics under control the ball is a lot easier to find.
Or take steps to avoid injuries, either by way of workout or by mechanics, like was suggested last April. It's only a matter of proper arm position during the wind-up.
3.) Dr. Mike Marshall, who holds major-league records for games pitched in one season (106!!), relief innings pitched (208 1/3) and consecutive games for a pitcher (13!!), all set with the LA Dodgers in his 1974 Cy Young season, helped diagnose Tommy John with the torn ligament.
He got his doctorates after baseball, and now says he has perfected a technique called the Maxline Delivery.
Read about it here...The injury is not anything to panic over, though; its merely a concern - primarily as result of his arm not getting into the proper slot.
- He could take steps to prevent injury to himself and to the Yankees by calling Dr. Mike Marshall.
Joba's stuff is scary enough without him having to overthrow, look at Pedroia - the league MVP - fall out of the box scared as Joba throws a slider after his heat.
4) Joba Should End the season in the Set - Up Role as part of inning management.
- That means post season play too! Its the best of both worlds. In series-type play Joba can play in more games as a reliever, and the Yanks would save innings pitched on his arm too.
5) Joba should ditch the change up and learn the sinker.
Just like Wang, Joba had a shoulder injury, though Wang's more serious. The Yankees answer for Wang to avoid injury was to stop Wang from throwing the slider and learn the sinker - which went onto become his best pitch of all and it only took him one off-season to learn it.
6.) The Yankees Could Go with a 6 Man Rotation in 2009. This would take the strain of the season off of each of the Yankee pitchers and promote less stress leading to less injuries. Anything it takes to keep the rotation healthy ought ot be considered - a lesson hard learned in 2008.
Joba & the Set Up Role - The New Mo? Say it ain't so ...
At issue is the comparison of Mo to Joba. But what's being left out of the discussion is the success that the Yankee bullpen had after John Wetteland, with the likes of Jeff Nelson and Ramiro Mendoza - who invented the term "BRIDGE."
Are we suggesting that Nellie and Mendoza are power pitchers? They're weren't.
The other piece of information not being said is that if Mariano Rivera could pitch more than four innings and handle the impact of being a starter, then he would be in the rotation and not in the pen.
His body frame demands that he be a reliever.
In reality, Mo did not come up as a pitcher at all, he was initially a shortstop before being signed by the Yankees, who saw him volunteer to pitch on his team in Panama.
Mariano started off in the Minor Leagues as a starting pitcher; true, but in his second year, he blew out his elbow and had Tommy John surgery.
Take note, Joba; he tore his ligament by trying to throw too hard...too often.
In 1995, when Mo was first called up to the bigs, he was a starter and he went 5-3, with a 5.5 ERA. Does that sound like Joba's first year as a starter at all?
Anyone with a brain can see the difference between Mo and Joba right off the bat. Mo is skinny and short, and to get mustard on the ball, he had to overthrow; thus the Tommy John Surgery and the move to the set-up role.
Joba is over 6 foot tall and 200-plus pounds (and has a smooth arm) meaning that it doesn't look like he is throwing the ball fast until you hear it go by.
A Starter from The Start.
Joba's college coach at Nebraska saw him warming up and throwing heat to the tune of 96 mph. He said that he thought Joba was throwing about 85 and then looked at the radar gun and was shocked to see 96.
Afterwards he said, "maybe we do have a chance this year." Joba led the Huskers to their first ever College World Series as a sophmore with a 2.8 ERA.
After earning his job as a starter for the Cornhuskers, Joba never played another position outside of Team Ace, which is where he is headed on the Yankees as long as they want a perennial ace of the league in their rotation.
Of seeing Joba for the first time as a starter, Vin Scully said, "Wow. The hype following this kid is for real. He throws the first one at 99 high and inside and then the second one is a curve ball thrown at your ear. It's not even fair."
If the Yankees absolutely need a power pitcher as the set up man, then they should find someone who may not be able to go the distance that is required to be a starter. Where can they find one?
I know one in Houston who isn't signed and still wants to pitch; his name is ROGER CLEMENS.
Outside of Clemens (there aren't any) but then again, the Yankees didn't need power pitching in relief during the Dynasty Years (outside of Mo) to achieve success.
Then who can fill Joba's shoes? Good luck. The better question is: Who can replace him as a starter?
With Joba the Heat in the rotation, the Yankees are four deep right now and don't have the best rotation in the league, not even in the AL; the Red Sox are five deep and maybe seeking out a sixth for their rotation.
So the answer cannot be to move the low ERA on the team to the bullpen.
Replacement for the Set Up Role?
Two words: Phil Hughes.
He came in relief of Clemens during the 2007 playoffs against Cleveland and threw five shutout innings on the biggest stage of his life: post-season play in the American League.
I said it last year and will say it again: Phil Hughes can start the year in the bull Pen as the potential set up guy. As a matter of fact, he throws 96 and could be considered a power type pitcher too. Given his injuries, the pen may suit Phil perfectly.
Phil should start off in the majors learning as much as he can as a reliever and then when someone goes down to injury, Phil can slide into the starter role.
Outside of him, the Yankees already have a great bullpen. They picked up Marte last year and signed him to three years this off-season, a solid lefty who will figure out the AL hitters.
New York also has Jose Veras, a power pitching youngster who opened eyes for all last year. There is also Edwar Ramirez, too, a computer engineer looking guy who has a change up (palm ball) that would make even Fred Astaire do a stutter step. There is a pitcher who could help Joba's change up too.
Finally, the Yanks have Aceves, Roberston & Danny Giese as well.
Joba cometh to start; he is big, he is fast, and he has the most scary stuff in all the bigs; just ask Yuke how he feels about facing off against Joba for seven innings in a row.
The truthful answer would be, "not good. I'll have to wear pads when I go to the plate whenever he pitches, just in case."
Joba may just be the No. 1 in the rotation, especially if the Yanks get Andy Pettitte back, which would give them two lefties and the last time they had two lefties they were in the middle of the rotation and the Yanks won the World Series. The lefties were Wells and Pettitte.
The rotation should turn out to be:
Joba, CC, Wang, Pettitte, AJ - plus maybe a trade for Peavy or Halladay too.
So come now, children of the Yankee Universe. Be strong and shout: LET'S GO YANKEES...what a warm up song too!
32 comments Last one added 5 months ago — Leave a Comment
Matthew Goodman 6 months ago
Re: 3) Talking to Marshall would require his mechanics to be completely overhauled. Plus, if you follow Driveline Mechanics, you'll find that while many of Marshall's teachings are good, some aspects of his regimen are questionable. While I agree that Joba's mechanics need tweaking (he makes an inverted W plus doesn't follow through cleanly), incorporating a full Marshall delivery would be time consuming, difficult, and unwise.
Re: 5) Learning a new pitch is difficult and would take time that would be better spent refining his changeup. Plus, there is no guarantee that Joba's sinker would be as good as Wang's. It's possible that his sinker would be useless due to physiological differences or variances in delivery.
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Patrick SJ Read 6 months ago
Hey Matthew - Tweaking his delivery would be tricky, not impossible. It's like Hawkins delivery - hold the ball up the whole time, instead of rearing it back and under, which encourages snapping the elbow (on 2nd thought - maybe Pett should talk to Doc) ... The pro to the approach here would be once incorporated Joba could throw as hard as he wants too. You mentioned the drawback, though I dont view Dr Marshall as a questionable source at all. Unconventional? YES.
Learning a new pitch is not as difficult as you make it out to be. Wang did it in an off season. Clemens developed the splitter when he got to NY. It would take some work -some practice and thats all. With his strength, hand size and momentum he should be able to throw a mean one too.
The positive to this would be another pitch that is LOW (a double-play ball) added to his arsenal. And it would allow him to not have to rely on the slider as much - which is an arm killer. There is no drawback. Heck, if he cant throw it, then no loss. But if he can....
I like Ryan or Clemens approach too - of just work out more. And would add the sinker. Wang did it, so can Joba- especially if it saves him from future mild injuries which cost him starts...
Thanks for the comments man
PR
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Matthew Goodman 6 months ago
Tweaking his delivery would take at least half a season, if not more. The Yankees won't take that time. Plus, Marshall's teachings may put reduce stress in some areas of the body but increase injury risk in others. I won't go into detail here but it's still an open debate in the biometric community.
As for learning a new pitch, it is difficult to turn it into a weapon. Wang's experience with the sinker is not the norm. Clemens, as a pitcher, is certainly not the norm. There is no reason for Joba to learn a sinker when he already has considerable work to do on refining his changeup and curve. The changeup would get him plenty of weakly hit ground balls and would give him another weapon against lefties.
Joba will need to keep in shape since he has a soft body. Hopefully, he will stay dedicated to the game so we can watch him blow away hitters year after year.
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Patrick SJ Read 6 months ago
Matt -
Tweaking a delivery for a 22 yr old is not as hard as you may think. Larson tweaked his 4 games before his perfect game in 56. Lets not over analyze it. I covered Dr Matthews last year pretty thoroughly - as you recall. And am not suggesting that this is the way - just an option up for consideration. TO say its being debated in the bio-metric community is a bit of a stretch, considering that it was recently developed and NOT in use in the MLB yet.
It is too unconventional, but there is one pitcher who learned the technique and was properly trained by Matthews - the word was that he destroyed his elbow and with this technique, he is a pitcher again - and without pain or further injury.
Wang did not have any "experience" whatsoever with the sinker before he learned how to throw it (taught him from within the organization).
The point was that the slider is an arm killer - that is what happened to Wang. He was told to stop throwing it and they taught him the sinker. It is also something Joba lacks in his arsenal - a low ball - or double-play ball.
This is an additional benefit of learning it - there are no detractors from learning (is there?)
The change is not used by Joba (or very rarely if at all) and when it is used, it is not meant to be hit. its meant as a set up pitch.
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Perry Arnold 6 months ago
You have a young man who has tremendous stuff. He did not blow his shoulder out. He had a strain and the Yankees shut him down to make sure it didn't get any worse. Why in the world would anyone start talking about changing his delivery. While we are at it why don't we redesign Charlize Therone. Gimme a break. Leave the guy alone. Leave him as a starter. I do like what is said by Nolan Ryan. Big league teams baby pitchers way too much. They should work harder to be in better shape and the best way to do that is to pitch more. But leave Joba alone and don't invent problems that don't exist.
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Patrick SJ Read 6 months ago
Perry - did I start talking about changing his delivery?
I said that IF (IF) Joba's injury is such a concern with some in the media (as it is being written and talked about all the time) then this is a technique to ENSURE that he stays a starter. It was brought up last year too in regards to his inngs limit - that they wanted to avoid injury... This is just one way to do it IF ...IF...injury persist.
I will tell you this - hot shot - Posada tweaks deliveries all the time during the games. What do you think he is trying to do? He is trying to tell the pitcher to get his arm in the RIGHT SLOT. If he doesnt learn how to do it on his own, then expect injury in the future.
This is not a suggestion for Joba - its merely an author reporting some techniques that are available to ensure that he doesn't get injured and if (IF) he does, some other alternatives.
Next time I will seek out you permission before posting such crude info offered by A HALL OF FAMER TURNED MEDICAL DOCTOR. The nerve of that man to test your sensitivity to the subject.
I am glad that you agreed with what I wrote that Ryan said... judging by your take on Matthews, I see you dont agree with HIM.
Dude - where in the world did you see where I said put Joba in the pen? TO THE CONTRARY ... see those funny colored links? READ THE OPENING SENTENCE...
I've been writing as a Pro-Starter guy for about a year. If you care to check the link, then you will see a Bleacher Writer **scooping** (or suggesting) his "unconventional" transition from the pen to the rotation during the season as early as last April. its the first time that someting like that has been done - and if you can find someone else writing about it before the article posted in here...then I will give you a lolli-pop.
I am NOT inventing shit and dont care for you placing the blame for what other media pundits say squarely on my shoulders. I am not trying to change Joba one damned bit - I am only writing about techniques and preventions.....like I said - I am glas you agreed with one technique of many in the read- that alone makes it worth it.
But Perry - I guess that I WILL WRITE WHATVER THE HELL I FEEL LIKE...okay with you? And if I want to invent something, then I guess that I will do it without your support.
Are you in a bit of denial that he missed a month last year? Liek it or not - tendinitis of the elbow is common. The shoulder is a whole different story - the is no Tommy Johns Surgery for it ether.
Sincerley
PR
-mabe bext time we could play a little nicer...
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Guy Lorenzo 6 months ago
Hello Patrick,
Excellent article. I fully concur that Joba Chamberlain should be a starter. He is an 'ace' in the making and should be part of a dynamic 1-2 punch with CC for years to come. I do have one minor point of disagreement regarding your statement that the Yankees' offense as is may not garnish enough runs to take a lead deep into a game. While you infer that after getting rid of Jason Giambi and Bobby Abreu the Yankees only replaced them with Mark Teixiera, you fail to mention that Hideki Matsui and Jorge Posada will be healthy and back in the lineup. They missed significant portions of last season and should be forces once again. In addition the Yankees also traded for Nick Swisher. While he and/or Xavier Nady may not be on the team by opening day, as currently constructed Swisher is a definite offensive upgrade over the Melky/Gardner combo and the Yankees offense as a whole should be pretty potent.
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Patrick SJ Read 6 months ago
Hello Guy,
That is something that I should have cleared up a little more. Posada and Matsui were all injure dlast year - true. But they were also healthy at one point and it didnt have an impact in terms of runs scored or offensive prowess. Posada went out in July (if I recall) and Mats went out later July, but prior those months the team wasnt any better off.
Here is the thing on last year's team. Had Matsui stayed healthy, then he or Damon would have been riding pine anyhow. The major set backs last year was Cano, Cabrera and Molina - each of them were under 250 from the beginning until the end of Sept when Cano went on a tear and finished 270. Cabrera was 250 and Molina was 225 at the end. Thats a problem.
Molina was touted as being the best defensive catcher in the league, but I was writing in support of replacing him. The bat behing the Yankee plate was that important - and he was replaced by Pudge, who is not a slouch. We still lost though.
Swisher is a mistake signing. He is a perennial 260 at the plate, but has power and a decent OBP - who knows how many RBI he could get on a team like NY.
I think that the Yanks were out for Manny and didnt expect to get Tex - so they got Swisher for 1st. Now he makes no sense in the line up at all. But since he is still here, then I would not push for Cabrera or Gardner at all. It would be Swisher in right, nady in center (or vice versa) and Damon in left. Or if matsui can play right (knees are a concern) then I would obviously get behind him in Right, Nady in CTR and Damon in LFT - those are NY's best bats & then we would still have room for a Proper DH.
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Dracula's Buttocks has teeth 6 months ago
My biggest question would be WHY you're suddenly proclaiming Joba Chamberlain some kind of an "ace" when he's only won 6 games in the big leagues in two years. The guy has accomplished NOTHING and already you're discussing him in the same sentence as Nolan Ryan. Why not just compare Melky Cabrera with Roberto Clemente while your at it?
Joba has been nothing more than a fat alcoholic failure so far in his young career and hasn't been able to remain healthy, never mind establish that he actually has the capability to be quality major league starter.
You also failed to mention A.J. Burnett as part of the Yankee rotation. Who else are the Yankees going to buy? Why don't they just shell out another $30 million to bring back that scumbag cheating loser Roger Clemens? The Yankees make everyone puke. They are an embarrassment to professional sports and to society. Joba Chamberlain needs to go to AA meetings before he's ready to pitch in anyones starting rotation.
I wonder why the he's such a fat drunk. Maybe he still has nightmares about bugs attacking him in Cleveland. You remember that. It was a blown save in the only game in his career that actually meant anything. And you're comparing him to Nolan Ryan. Funny stuff. Reality check time. Get off the Yankee crack.
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Patrick SJ Read 6 months ago
He count
I dont lookm at anyone's "win-loss" record to consider them a ace is why. Did I compare him to Nolan Ryan? It so happens that I've been watching since the mid 70s and this "kid" is the best rook I have seen since CLEMENS - not Ryan. The comparison is that they are all power pitchers. But Joba has more pitches than all of them!
I dont know - who else we should buy, Count - no one is free, right? How many home-grown stars should NY have? THEY ALEADY HAVE THE MOST OF ANY TEAM IN THE MLB PLAYING ON THEIR TEAM RIGHT NOW.
JETER, MO, POSADA, PETT, CANO, CABRERA, JOBA, HUGHES, KENNEDY, ACEVES, ROBERSTON, RAMIREZ & GIESE - should we just not be allowed to replace HALL OF FAMERS - or be forced to promote MINORS to replace them?
What do you care what new york spends? Is it your money? Clemens cheated? Wow - I must have missed the trial - when did they finish it ass hole. From what I KNOW - theyve been investigating him since 2006 and STILL HAVE JACK SHIT on him....good luck supporting the drug dealing rapist in any event. I'd keep McNamee away from your sister though ...
Jealous of Bugs now Count? Go back to your loser team and try to bolster their market - because arguing with a Yankee Fan makes as much sense as remaining in denial about Joba - who everyone and their uncle says has the best stuff in the league. like VIN SCULLY & every other out of town announcer that I caught on MLB.com....
If I am wrong count, please explain the 50,000 plus articles written about Joba -why is there all this hype around him if he stinks? Fat, yes count - he was overweight two years ago - that didnt stop him from throwing a .38 ERA against your ass!
Nor did his lost weight prevent him from putting up a 2.70 this past year...denial is not a river in africa.
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Patrick SJ Read 6 months ago
WHo do you have as home-grown stars (which is a relative term).
Really - tell me. How many have regular positions on your team...
Posada isnt a star? But somehow avgd 315 the yr before last, when healthy? 2 Silver Sluggers. Highes paid catcher in the game too - but maybe we just like Jorge enough to pay him, but not Pettitte. Get real - Posada is a switch hitter, with power and ability - that makes him amongst the best in the league. Unlike TEK.
Cano doesnt warrant any praise? I consider him one of the smoothest 2nd basemen in the league. BTW he hit 300 plus the yr befor last - maybe it was all an illusion, right?
Cabrera - ARM POWER. Did you miss Hughes's 2007? Aceves, Robertson, Ramirez (yes - star) and Giese all played regularly on the team...did you miss that part ROAD KILL?
HOW MANY DOES YOUR TEAM HAVE AGAIN.
If your judging a pitcher by his win loss record then I shouldnt even be talking to you - youre too ignorant. Maybe everyone else is wrong about Joba though - maybe he doesnt throw 100 with the best slider in the league. Maybe its your world Road Kill and we're all just living in it...
Stop trying to compare Doc to Roger - that is not necessary. The article is about power pitchers being starers - not wasted in the pen. But tell me - was Doc cheating when he used coke? Which is worse? Who won mor Cy Youngs, has more career strike outs, more Ks in one game (20...twice!)...obviously youre a mets fan. I am sorry for you loss.
Wake up son
PR
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Patrick SJ Read 6 months ago
BTW Dracula - the oldest trick in the book is to create an alter-ego. Lame dude. Real lame. Here youve been here a whole 2 months and someone already thinks that you are the most intelligent human in all man kind - wow, you are a star....LOL
I'd just delete Road Kill and use Dracula....
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John Cate 6 months ago
It doesn't matter if Chamberlain has the "stuff" to be an ace starter if he can't stay healthy. Some guys just can't handle a 200-plus inning workload. If the Yankees keep trying to use him as a starter, he's going to keep beating guys like Josh Beckett from time to time--but he's going to spend 50-70 percent of the season on the DL. Then there's going to come a day when he gets hurt badly, and that's going to cost him his career.
Look, I'm sure the Houston Astros would have liked to use Billy Wagner as a starter after they drafted him in 1993. But someone in that organization had the good sense to realize he would get hurt, and if that happened, his 100 mph fastball would be useless. So they put him in the bullpen, and Wagner got to be a great closer for 13 seasons before he finally did break down, just this past year.
The Yankees might need to bring Clemens back. They're obviously planning to go into '09 with three pitchers in their rotation with injury histories--Chamberlain, Burnett and Wang. Watch at least two of those three break down.
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Dracula's Buttocks has teeth 5 months ago
You are 100% right about Chamberlain. He is not, and will NEVER be an effective starter in the big leagues. He should be left in relief because he is simply not capable of staying healthy and throwing at high velocity.
That was a joke about bringing Clemens back right?
First of all, Clemens wouldn't be allowed back in the league after shaming and embarrassing the league (and himself) the way he did. Second of all why would anyone want him back? He flat-out stinks at this point of his life. They paid him $28 million to get beaten up, crushed and abused in 2007. Why would you think he would be any more effective two years later?
No one wants Clemens in the game anyway. He is persona non grata. More so than Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire combined. The moment he steps out on a baseball field the fans in every stadium will throw food, spit, curse and boo him. He is the laughingstock of America and the fans will let him know it with a vengeance.
If the Yankees are looking to bring back silly old junk heaps they should look elsewhere.
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John Cate 5 months ago
I don't expect Clemens to come back, but someone else mentioned it in the comments on this article, and Clemens has said he would like to pitch again in '09. He wasn't that bad in '07, actually had an ERA better than league, so if some team could get past the sleaze factor, it's easy for me to see him being signed. I would bet it would be some team struggling at the gate, though, and not the Yankees.
The Yankees are going to need another starter; I'm not a Yankee fan so I don't care if they get one or not, but the over-under on starts by Chamberlain and Burnett in 2009 is probably about 35. Chamberlain gets hurt all the time, and Burnett, who has made 30 starts in a season exactly twice in his career, is coming off a career high in innings pitched.
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John Cate 5 months ago
Hey Count,
Grow up.
Sincerely,
John
P.S. You will have a lot more credibility here if you learn the proper way to spell the last name of a 350-game winner.
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Patrick SJ Read 5 months ago
I think the injury was a little blown out of proportion. There is no reason to think he can handle it - the fact is that he should still be in the minors for another yr - it takes 3 yr on avg.
The Yanks will start him in the rotation - as theyve said. He might finish off in the bull pen though - as part of his inning limitation program. He might go t othe bull pen in August ans stay there through post season. Best of both worlds....
No guy handles 200 plus innings in their first year, much less 2nd - sometimes third. Look at Ben Sheets as an example of how not to start off a rookie.
NY also signed Mitre - who got banned recently. He's a starter from the marlins, but I think that they will sign Pettitte and then trade for Halladay or Peavy come July.
Burnett learned to throw easier last year. - Halladay adjusted how hard he was throwing, hence the injuries. I expect him to be fine. 16 wins.
Chamberlain will be fine too. He isnt transitioning from the bull pen this year, so his arm wont have to deal with that kind of hick-up during the season.
Wang? If he has to hit, then we should worry....
Add Pettitte and they still have Hughes, Kennedy and Cabrera to trade down the road...
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Patrick SJ Read 5 months ago
I'd put Clemens in the bull pen in 2 seconds. Maybe even as a 6th...
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Perry Arnold 5 months ago
I went back and read your article again and read through the comments again. And you really must be an idiot. You absolutely are the one who started talking about changing Joba's delivery when you mentioned as one of your options for Joba to consider Mike Marshall's plan. I have seen Marshall's plan and it requires months of work and a complete reworking of his delivery. Also Don Larsen did not change his delivery four days before his perfect game. He simply started pitching without a wind up. That does not mean that he was changing any of his other mechanics. And as far as you being the first one to suggest that Joba be made a starter, as you contented in your reply to my comment, that is simply foolish. Joba had always been a starter. He started in college and in the minors. And you talked about him tearing his tendon. He didn't tear his tendon, you idiot. If he had, he would have required surgery. He strained his arm. There is a huge difference. Finally you go to great lengths to explain why Mo could not be a starter and why Joba is perfect all because of body types. I wonder if you ever heard of a guy named Ron Guidry. Or Whitey Ford for that matter. Or Robin Roberts. By your insance logic none of those guys should have been starters. And Goose Gossage should have been. You need to crawl back in your hold somewhere until you can make some sense. By the way, when we are talking about credentials I have studied kinesiology and motor learning methods and I am not sure your journalism background qualifies you to talk about pitching methods or mechanics.
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Patrick SJ Read 5 months ago
Perry,
TO call someone an idiot for offering OPTIONS is a little much. Go on and on all you want my friend. Facts are facts - Joba was injured last year. This article is about some techniques of avoiding future injuries.
If you dont agree with one technique or another - I didnt say you had too. I simply offered some possibilities. Dont tell me how long it takes to learn to tweak a delivery Junior.
If he's good, a pitcher could tweak it on the fly. But again - its one option and nor did I write my FAVORITE ONE.
Nice rant there though. SO doing away with the wind up isnt changing the delivery? Come on Perry. Keeping the ball above shoulder high is a change, as is going without a wind up (no leg power....)
Dude - read the article. No shit he's always been a starter...always since College - AS PER THIS VERY ARTICLE - which includes a link to an article interviewing his Nebraska Head Coach - enjoy.
Uh huh. Joba is a natural starter - he has the frame. YOu named exceptions to the rule - including MO. Oswalt is one of them too - you missed him. So was Maddux. Pedro. Cone. None are power pitchers like Joba. Clemens was - Johnson was too. Gooden. Power - power.
You're studying? Great. Keep on studying.
Perry - blow it out your ear, you pretentious little twit. I didnt list all of my qualifications - do you want a book? I think its clear to see that we've all been playing since we were age 5. I was a perennial all star since age 7. I made it to college and blew out my knee as a catcher - which is where I played since age 9. I ended up in the Air Force.
I think I've earned the right to offer some options to interested fans (not approved of by Perry - I guess) for a kid who his coming up this fast to avoid injury. Its only food for thought.
- if no one should bring issues like this up, then why are any of us here? Dip shit. If you say its no big deal, then we have your opinion. Denial is not an option in this article though.
I want Joba to start - and for a long long time too.
Oh - and I didnt say I called that Joba would start (like I was 5 years old) - I scooped his transition.
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Perry Arnold 5 months ago
One more comment, Mike Marshall is not a medical doctor.
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Patrick SJ Read 5 months ago
He's a lot more qualified than you, Perry.
He is a Doctor, so you can call him Doctor too. I think I also listed MLB credentials - do you have those? Take your disagreement and bitterness up with him - not me.
Or tell Joba to not throw so hard, learn the sinker - plus get in shape.
Of course they'll also send him to the pen come August through the post season.
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Jack Peters 5 months ago
Hey Patrick nice article.... im always confused about your articles because you usually start it out with a date and "Washington DC" does that mean this is someone else's article or are you writing it from DC? anyway i agree with you on many points except of course for Pettite. He used to be my favorite player but now he couldn't take my trash out! He should accept the 10 million dollars (in this economy, turning down 10 million is like punching the every-day-man in the face) and be quiet. Oh yea and please for the sake of everyone arguing with you do not bring up lowly all Clemens waiting to be picked up by a team :)
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Patrick SJ Read 5 months ago
Jack, Hope the holidays were good to you. I am writing it from DC. Its common practice to add the location and date. IMO Pettitte will get an incentive laden contract. I know the opinion about Clemens. I was only making the point that there are limited people to replace Joba in the pen effectively. Virtually no one can... Actually - I think the market will favor baseball. AS people chose to stay home more, baseball will pick up more in add revenues. Their market will grow. Its a buyers market, that's all. Dude - do you think the Yanks will sign Manny? The sox picked up another starter from Japan - ex MVP.
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Jack Peters 5 months ago
"I am writing it from DC. Its common practice to add the location and date."
I understand its common practice, but its a practice not usually done on this website, that was the only reason why I was asking.
"do you think the Yanks will sign Manny?"
Even though I wish the Yankees would sign Manny to a 3 year incentive based contract, the reality is he will sign with either SF or LA.
"Hope the holidays were good to you"
Hope the holidays were good to you too and that all is well!
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Patrick SJ Read 5 months ago
I heard SF is out on Manny. They brought back Juan Rivera and have a left fielder who they told would be there. LA had an offer out, but took it away. I think the Yanks are waiting for someone to put up an offer, so that they dont over pay (which - why should it mater at this point?).
I like the incentive type contract too. I suggested it for Pettitte a couple of weeks ago. BOS has Penny and Smoltz both on incentives too.
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matt elias 5 months ago
While I agree that Joba Chamberlain should be a starter and not a reliever, some of your points are just wrong.
Joba never won a championship in college at the University of Nebraska. His team made the College World Series but he was joined by Alex Gordon who was a top 5 pick and National College Player of the Year. I would hope the #1 ranked person on the Yankees community would know this.
I am not sure when Vin Scully would have seen Joba pitch to produce that quote since Scully announces the Dodgers and doesnt travel past the Rocky Mountains to announce.
A lot of the members of the Yankees, inlucing Posada want Joba in the pen. Those are selfish reasons as he gives them the best chance to win next year there but not inthe future. The Yankees did play their best when Joba was in the pen, they seemed confident with knowing he was there with Mo.
You want Dan Giese or Alfredo Aceves to be setup men? Aceves is a starter and could be a 4 or 5. Geise is nothing special as to why he was 30 years old and just getting an extended look in the pros. Bruney is more likely a guy who can do what Joba does.
Hughes shouldn't be a set up man. He is 22 give him time to develop. He was rushed to the pros and given too much expectations last year.
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Patrick SJ Read 5 months ago
Thanks for the comments Matt and for the correction on the college world series, though you could have saved the leading Yankee Writer jab. I know plenty about the Yanks and am willing to share my information even when readers, like some here, have the manners of children. I also include a lot of links in my articles - which is one of the reasons for my high ranking.
I heard Scully say that about Joba last year on the radio & I didnt say he was announcing the game.
No Matt - I didnt say Giese or Aceves should be the set up guy. I said that those guys are part of the pen though - middle relievers. RAMIREZ, VERAS, MARTE & Mo are the set up guys. You can not get much better than that in baseball.
I am happy that Joba makes them comfortable, but CC would make them comfy too. It doesnt mean that its right. Damon and Posada are the only ones I've heard say that Joba should be in the pen. Joba was so good that we would sometimes go a week waiting to see him and he had 2 losses as a set up guy by june. and oddly enough a win too.
Bruney is a FA. Hughes might be better for the Yankees in the bull pen. Should NY not go after Peavy or Halladay in a trade because of Phil Hughes (again!)??
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Justin Green 5 months ago
Great article and I completely agree with starting Joba, everyone is scared that he will be a prior or wood because he got hurt so young, but the inning cap and the fact that he is not going to be leaned on to be that ace that he is capable of being make the risk of him seriously re-injuring himself minimal. He is a workhorse and as you can see in Brian Bruney's case, girardi is definitely fitness oriented. Also don't forget about phil coke in the pen, hes another lefty with good stuff and a huge step up from billy traber who was our go to lefty in the pen last year until marte arrived. Between the solid 1-4 rotation and the sturdy bullpen I think that Hughes could be the number 5, but as a long innings reliever would be a step up from dan geise.
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Patrick SJ Read 5 months ago
Justin,
I agree with everything you just wrote - a true rarity. good point about phil coke too. I would add that BOS has 6 starters now, so NY should go with at least 5 - 6 too help keep injuries down. We still have to beat the sox and I'd rather not rely on the Wild Card. I cant believe that they added Smotlz and Penny both.
And I think the Yanks need one more RBI producing bat.
Good Post!
PR
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KAT GILL 5 months ago
hey patrick. groovy article, comments, and replies to comments. ive absorbed HUGE DATA tonight perusing this article. i've tried about 20 times to express my reasons which support joba as a starter...only to subsequently delete them. hell. it's 1:24 here CA time...and i'm exhausted. maybe next time.
excellent job on the clemens write today, also...thanks for the link, i respect your style.
~kathryn
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Patrick SJ Read 5 months ago
Hi Kathryn, Thanks for the read my friend. Joba is an obvious starter, except to media types who need to stir up big circulation numbers... I am re-releasing a Clemens article tonight relative Radomski and McNamee's history. I'm pulling for Clemens. In other news - Bernie's is making a comeback... He would be the perfect man to strengthen a weak bench once loaded with the aging such as Fielder, Strawberry, Raines and Justice. Bernie would be a perfect fit.
R
PR
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