Tribe Talk: Clearance Sale! Clearance Sale!

Welcome to Tribe Talk, where Bleacher Report's Tribe fans weigh in on the ups and downs of the Indians each week throughout the season.

This week we’re kind of cranky, so we vent about the trades of Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez, lament the state of the team in general, and lastly, attempt to seek solace in the few positive experiences that watching the Indians afforded us this season.

I would like to thank this week's participants Nino Colla, Jeff Smirnoff, Scott Miles, and guest star M.T. Robinson, B/R Featured Columnist for the Padres, for their contributions.

This discussion is open to all, so please feel free to comment below and pitch in your thoughts on the questions we're addressing this week.

Go Tribe!

1. The Cleveland media absolutely crucified the Indians for the deal they made with the Phillies for Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco. Do you agree with this assessment, and if so, was there ANY redeeming factor in the trade?

Additionally, please share your thoughts on the inclusion of Ben Francisco in the deal. Did this further tip the trade in the Phillies' favor? Were you at all sorry to see Francisco leave?

Nino Colla: I think there were plenty of redeeming factors in this trade.

Not just the media, but the fans, our future children, the dog next door, and the cast and crew from the hit show NCIS all crucified the Indians for this deal. Let's be honest though, about 75 percent of those harsh reactions came at first glance.

I won't lie, I screamed at people, (maybe a little violently) about how Jason Donald didn't make any sense. To a certain extent  I don't get why they'd want a single position player in the deal, but given Shapiro's plan, I can go with it.

Look, the deal isn't bad. The Indians got the second, third, fourth, and 10th rated prospects according to Baseball America. While I don't take them by the book, the book on Knapp is that he can be really special.

Carrasco can be very good if he harnesses his stuff, and both Marson and Donald made Team USA's bronze medal winner last year in the Olympics and both contributed. Not to mention, they too are rated highly by scouts.

So three of the prospects we acquired aren't having spectacular years. Stop looking at numbers and look at the talent that is there. They've got it; let's see if we can make it work.

I don't think inclusion of Francisco was much. I loved Benny and all, but he was nothing more than a fourth outfielder and that's what he'll be in Philadelphia.

If there is someone who wants to cry about giving away an outfielder, cry about Franklin Gutierrez, who had more talent than Francisco. Francisco's a streaky hitter that is above average defensively, but not a stud.

Samantha Bunten: Mark Shapiro must throw the best parties. Come on over, trash the house, eat all the food, drink all the beer, maybe steal a few pieces of furniture on your way out.

All Shapiro asks in return is that you "blow him away," by which he means leave a few bucks on the table on your way out. Don't worry, he doesn't expect applause.

Shapiro is no doubt considered a very generous man in Philadelphia.

If Knapp turns into a Cy Young winner in four years and all the other players the Indians received become solid major leaguers eventually, then I'll be the first person to say I was mistaken when I said Shapiro all but gave Lee away.

If the outcome is in anyway different than that though, this trade will hold up as one of the worst in recent history.

Knapp is supposed to be the crown jewel in the package the Indians received, but I would never allow so much to ride on an 18-year-old with a 2-7 record in A-ball who already has arm issues. Clearly, this organization has learned nothing from the never-ending Adam Miller saga.

I'm not saying there weren’t any redeeming factors in the whole mess, just that despite any potential redemptive value in the deal, it's still a bad trade.

I'm sorry to see Francisco leave, but only because I just liked him and not because he was any good. His potential tops out at fourth outfielder, whether in Cleveland, Philadelphia, or anywhere else.

He's exactly the kind of player that becomes an 11th hour "toss-in" in deals like this. Francisco isn't a player with enough impact to further tip the trade in the Phillies favor, and they were already the clear winners in the deal anyway.

Jeff Smirnoff:  It's the timing that is unforgivable. Whereas the CC Sabathia trade gave up on one lost year in 2008, the Cliff Lee trade gives up on 2009, 2010, and possibly 2011. So the Indians are giving up on seasons in the future, not just one crappy one mid-season.

Plus, they have NO starting pitching depth at the minor league level. They could have gotten a similar haul by trying to win in a crappy 2010 AL Central and dumping him next year if possible.

Ben Francisco is blocking Matt LaPorta, Michael Brantley and Jordan Brown. His inclusion is irrelevant.

M.T. Robinson: The problem for all the have-not teams in baseball is that the clubs who have the money can determine who plays where.

Philadelphia had no reason to give away their best prospects in the Cliff Lee deal, because they knew that in the long run, the Indians would not be able to keep Lee anyways. That basically destroys any bargaining position the Indians might have had.

Francisco was added because he has had a down season, but I think in the long run, the Indians will regret letting him go so cheaply.

Triple-A right-hander Carlos Carrasco, Class A pitcher Jason Knapp, catcher Lou Marson, and shortstop Jason Donald are decent prospects, and Donald may well be the best of the bunch.

Indians general manager Mark Shapiro postulated after the trade, "At the root of this deal was balancing the conviction of our ability to compete in 2010 with the opportunity to impact the team's construction for years to come, without the sense of confidence in the team's ultimate competitiveness, we acted aggressively to add players that will impact the organization in 2010 and beyond." In other words, no refunds for this season, and you had better renew for next season....

Scott Miles: I'd give the trade about a "C".

We couldn't get any of the Phillies' top prospects (like Kyle Drabek or Dominic Brown). Instead, we get a catcher, a position where we have organizational depth (Santana, Toregas, Gimenez and even Shoppach); a utility-type infielder; a young pitcher with great "upside" but who is four years away from helping and already has a bum shoulder; and a highly touted pitcher who has hit a speed bump in AAA.

So I'm a bit mixed on the haul. It could have been better, it could have been worse. Carrasco and Knapp are the keys; if they can help the rotation, then the trade will be OK.

Losing Francisco really has little impact on us. With LaPorta and Brantley looming, he was expendable, plain and simple.

2. The Victor Martinez trade provoked less criticism in terms of how smart the trade was strategically than the Cliff Lee deal, but at the same time produced a far angrier response in terms of the emotional impact.

How angry are you at the Indians for trading Martinez? Does this trade bother you more than the Lee trade?

Putting aside the emotional damage the Indians did by trading a hometown favorite, consider the trade purely from a baseball standpoint: was the move a good one for the Indians?

Nino Colla: I'm angry that the Indians were in a position to trade Victor Martinez. If we weren't in this position, then Victor Martinez doesn't get traded. Emotionally, this trade bothers me than any other trade the Indians have ever made.

But this trade makes all the sense in the world to make when you boil down the numbers. He's an aging catcher who is probably at a nice value to get something for him, so why not?

There are things working against the trade, though. The first is that he's the leader and face of this franchise. You can talk about Grady Sizemore all you want, but Martinez is the guy who fans could identify with and tell their kids, "Yeah, that's how you play the game."

The next would be that his contract lines up perfectly with the arrival of Carlos Santana. Plus Santana looks up to Martinez like an idol and for him to learn from Vic would be great.

Okay look, there are some pros and cons of this deal. A lot of the cons are emotional investment into the team. I don't like trading Victor Martinez as much as the next guy, but this team has committed to their plan of investing in 2011 and beyond with the hopes of making a decent contender in 2010.

That's the plan we've been given and for the situation they are in and the plan they've laid out, I think the trade they made with Martinez was very good.

Samantha Bunten: It's difficult to get past the negative impact of this trade with regard to off-field issues: the fans lost their favorite player, the clubhouse lost its leader, and the guy who was traded was shipped out even though he practically begged to stay.

Still, at least we can all take some comfort in the fact that unlike the Lee trade, this actually looks like it may not have been a completely disastrous deal for the Indians.

So far Masterson looks like he can contribute in the bullpen this year, and perhaps as a member of the rotation next year, which is very fortunate for a team desperate for even adequate starting pitching.

Hagadone and Price aren't truly far enough along to judge their value, but both have decent potential and the Indians need all the arms, unproven or not, that they can get.

I am by no means implying that I think this was a good deal; I don't see Clay Buchholz on my roster, so I am forced to conclude that Mark Shapiro sold low yet again. Rather, I would say that I don't think it was a bad deal, either.

Which side emerges as the eventual victor in the deal will be determined by the success of Masterson's transition to a starting role in 2010 and how long Martinez can keep putting up offensive numbers at his current pace.

Jeff Smirnoff:  Angry because he was my favorite player, but catching is a position of depth in the minors so the trade does make sense.

But once again, they traded him a year and a half before he could leave. A bad trend to see arise. It's good in the fact they got a lot of pitching in return bad in the message it sends the fans.

M.T. Robinson: Having just seen the Padres’ Jake Peavy dealt away for a bag of beans, against Padre fans' wishes, I fully understand how Indians' fans feel about losing their best player. Pissed. Losing V-Mart will gut the Tribe for the foreseeable future.

The players the Indians got in the deal, Justin Masterson, Nick Hagadone and Bryan Price, may well provide eventual help. But, not today. None of these guys are even remotely top prospects in comparison to Martinez.

The common position of a seller team like the Indians, is that "We are building for the future." Isn't every team building for the future, every day? At what point does 2015 become more important than tomorrow?

I always feel like I am getting sold down the river when the Padres do that. I have, at the most, 100 baseball seasons to watch in my life, and that is an optimistic number. Waiting for next year gets old, when next year might never come.

Scott Miles: Victor Martinez has been my favorite player for several years now, and it's not just because of his performance on the field. It's his leadership. It's the way he defends his pitchers. It's gutting it out through injuries and still playing at an All-Star level.

I don't care about his age, or his injury history, or his contract, or what we got back for him: Victor Martinez is the type of player you just can't get rid of.

3. Perhaps the only thing more devastating to a fan than seeing their favorite player(s) traded is being forced to consider the thought that maybe the player was happy to leave.

While Victor Martinez appeared to be as sad to leave the Indians as Indians fans were to see him go, Cliff Lee looked like he couldn't get out of town fast enough.

Do you think Lee is happy he was traded? Would it bother you if he was?

Nino Colla: I don't think he was happy he was traded from Cleveland. I think he was happy he had a new team to go to, though, if that makes any sense.

I think Lee felt a little sting that the team wasn't interested in a contract extension on his terms after they sent him to the minors in 2007. I'd be a little miffed too.

You have to remember that this a team game and had that situation happened to Victor Martinez, I guarantee you that Martinez would understand it, given it being warranted.

Lee looks very happy in Philadelphia and I don't think he was planning on sticking around in Cleveland when his contract is up.

That being said, I don't think he was itching to get out of Cleveland. If Lee was happy to get out Cleveland, good for him, he got his wish.

It bothers me, but there's nothing I can do about it. At least he wasn't vocal about it and that's all we can ask of him as fans: For Lee to be respectful about, which he was.

I can deal with it. However if he was happy, it does show what kind of person he is and why he's had the blowups and incidents he has had in the past.

Samantha Bunten: I think Lee was thrilled, and I can't say I blame him. Lee was still smarting, two years after the fact, from his unceremonious demotion in 2007 that ultimately led to his being left off the playoff roster that season.

He rebounded by winning the Cy Young the following year, for which the Tribe rewarded him by saddling him with an offense that provided a paltry amount of run support and a bullpen that blew his leads and cost him wins on a regular basis.

Lee now has the opportunity to be the ace of a staff that gets excellent run support, has a reliable bullpen backing it up, and a supportive, enthusiastic fan base.

And of course the most important factor, Lee now has the opportunity to pitch for a team that has a legitimate shot to not only reach the playoffs, but perhaps win the World Series.

I bet Lee couldn't get out the clubhouse door fast enough after the trade was completed. I would have been sprinting for the exit, too.

Jeff Smirnoff: I think that this organization has treated Cliff Lee (and other players) very poorly. Some they have treated well, some they have not.

He still carries a chip on his should after being sent to AAA in 2007 and being left off the playoff roster and he harnessed that into the pitcher he is today.

His agents did approach the Indians about an extension before the season and the Tribe said no. I think it was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I have no ill will towards Cliff Lee and look forward to seeing him tear up the inferior NL for years to come.

M.T. Robinson: Some players just are not cut out for the city they play in, and Lee might well be one of those. Cleveland is an acquired taste, you either get it, or you don't.

Lee stated his desire to pitch for a winner: "Obviously the Phillies are the defending world champions, they're a good team and they're in first place. Honestly, it's an honor and I look at it as a good thing.

"If other teams are wanting me and are willing to trade some of their key players and future players for me, it's a compliment." Yeah, I think he wanted out of Cleveland.

Scott Miles: Cliff Lee is absolutely happy he was traded. You can tell that he still holds it against the organization for demoting him to the minors in 2007 (when he was AWFUL) and not including him on the playoff roster.

I look at it this way: I'm sad once every five days that Lee was traded, but nothing more.

4. With two high-profile trades made by the Indians last week, the trade of Ryan Garko a few days before kind of got swept under the proverbial rug.

What did you think of this move? Were the Indians smart to move Garko while he was swinging a hot bat, or do you think his excellent recent performance should have prompted the Tribe to keep him?

Nino Colla: I think the trade was a move that had to be made and just like with Martinez, I'm emotionally distraught over it.

The reason he needed to be dealt was as simple as one player, Matt LaPorta. The Indians have been playing last year's big acquisition at first base and have made it plainly clear that with Mike Brantley, Grady Sizemore, Nick Weglarz, and Shin-Soo Choo all in the outfield, LaPorta's future is at first.

Thus, it makes all the sense in the world to let Garko go and get something for him so they could see what Marte has and then eventually move on to LaPorta.

All that being said, I hate how this went down and I hate how Garko was treated. Ryan was a class act and one guy who didn't get a fair shake here with Eric Wedge and even with the fans to an extent.

Garko had potential to be and even displayed at times the ability to be a run-producing first baseman on a contending team.

He was there in 2007, last year he led the team in RBI despite being in what most called a "down year," and whenever he played CONSISTENTLY this year, he was good.

However Wedge would bench him for stretches at a time to get him rusty in favor of the strikeout master, Kelly Shoppach. It was a total lack of respect if you ask me.

For all Garko did for this organization, from moving to first base and taking all the knocks about being a bad defender...the guy turned himself into a serviceable first baseman.

When Garko was asked to play the outfield, he was the laughing stock of the entire spring training time period. I was even laughing. But Garko did it and he did it for the team.

Garko's tenure here was one filled with dedication to the team and the organization and Wedge's treatment of him was low and disrespectful. I hope he has a better situation in San Francisco, because he certainly deserves it.

Samantha Bunten: I'm sorry to see Garko leave, but the move was inevitable as he is clearly not part of the team's long-term plans.

Garko had to be moved when he was hitting well; he's not worth all that much on the market even with his bat on fire, and wouldn't be worth anything at all if he weren't at the top of his game. The Indians were smart to sell high on Garko.

Yet I still worry that the Indians may have, once again, sold themselves short in this deal. Barnes is clearly a player the Giants weren’t too busted up about getting rid of, and no one parts with a pitcher that willingly if they think he has much to offer.

Aside from that, Barnes’ numbers at A-ball are reasonably good, and c’mon…how much did anyone really think the Indians could get back for Garko?

Ultimately I view this deal from the perspective that Garko ultimately meant nothing to the Indians in the long run, so they weren't really giving up anything they needed by letting him go. Perhaps if they get anything out of Barnes at all, we can consider this deal a victory.

Jeff Smirnoff: Garko is an average fielder with average power and poor speed who hits for a high average. He was blocking Matt LaPorta and Jordan Brown. He was not and should not be in the long term plans for the team.

His departure is inconsequential but I wish him well in SF. A class act and a great guy, but an average MLB player.

M.T. Robinson: Garko will help the Giants, who are still looking for someone to replace Will Clark at first base. Garko was probably never going to be worth more than he was at that moment. Sometimes you just have to pull the trigger on a deal.

The Indians received Single A left-hander Scott Barnes, who was 12-3 down on the farm, sporting a 2.85 ERA, and 99 strikeouts in 18 starts through 98.0 innings.

Sadly, that's the best the Indians could probably get for Garko, who will help the Giants this season. Barnes is at least a year or three away from contributing at the MLB level, so Indians fans basically get no return at the moment.

Were the Indians smart? Hard to tell.

Scott Miles: We have another Ryan Garko in Columbus in the form of Jordan Brown (although it was Andy Marte, not Brown, who got called up).

Garko has showed that he can swing a hot bat but not with any consistency, and most of his damage comes against lefties (coincidentally, his hot streak and trade came in the midst of the Indians facing about a dozen left-handed starters in a row).

So, good trade. Picked up another promising young pitcher and have enough options to plug into Garko's place.

5. Fun Question: It has been a tough, tough week for the Tribe faithful, and we could all use a bit of levity in the midst of all this sadness and frustration.

Please share a brief story about a game you attended (or just watched on TV) this season where something happened that actually made you happy.

Nino Colla: I laughed at Paul Hoynes ducking when Bart Swain caught that foul ball the other night. I find things very amusing when I watch every single Indians game possible. And when I mean possible, I mean every time I'm home when they play, which is almost always.

I went to a few games this year and both trips were successful. I must share my story about the game I went with co-workers. The story is long so I'll cut it short and get to the part involving me.

I took satisfaction in our group telling a bunch of old-timers off after they told a few us to sit down.

It angers me that the comment, "They aren't any good anyway," was thrown out at one point. Thankfully someone next to me said, "Why did you even come to the game then?"

That made me joyful. I dislike fans who take that type of attitude and to have one of them get shot down like that made my night. It was a crappy situation with the group behind us that turned good by the end of the game.

Also, I enjoyed seeing the man with the beer belly and no shirt dancing like a fool that night because it was throwback retro night. I didn't enjoy the shirtless part, but I enjoyed the laughing part, because everyone was.

Samantha Bunten: My dad and I went to the game the night after Victor Martinez was traded. At first it felt wrong to be there, like we were somehow betraying Victor by patronizing the very establishment that sold him down the river.

Then we walked in and they handed us the promotional giveaway for the night, which turned out to be, ironically, a Victor Martinez bobblehead. At that point it all just became funny, and that was reason enough to enjoy watching after all.

At one point we left the bobbleheads under our seats unattended for several innings, hoping someone would steal them because we were sick of carrying around a poorly rendered effigy of one of our favorite, now-former Indians that would only serve as a reminder that the man running our front office has all the competence of a preschooler.

When we returned to our seats, we discovered there had been no takers. I suppose it didn’t help that the way the bobblehead was positioned in the box made it look like Victor was lying in a coffin.

The game eventually went into extra innings, and was effectively ended in the 12th inning, in the rain, when Jose Veras balked with a runner on third. Amazing.

Turns out watching the team completely implode is the next best thing to watching them win. It’s the slow struggle to avoid demise that is painful; this complete train wreck is actually pretty fun to watch.

Jeff Smirnoff: My Dad needed someone to go to a Tribe game with him this year. It turned out to be Cliff Lee's last game as an Indian at home. He pitched a complete game win and was incredible to watch. I'm glad I got to see it. Even better that I saw it with my Dad.

M.T. Robinson: Easter Sunday 2009, Petco Park. I get a call with free tickets and a press pass out of the blue. Excellent. A day at the ballpark is always a good thing.

The Pads are off to a decent start, and the crowd is in their Sunday best for the Easter holiday. As I head into the Press Box, Longtime Padre Announcer Jerry Coleman is striding toward me. "Hey Colonel." "Hello young man." When you are Jerry's age, everyone is a young man.

I head off to my seat, and realize there is a 25 mile an hour wind blowing in off the bay. BRRRRR. San Diego has its cold days, no matter what the legend says. I froze my butt off for the length of the game. No worries, I have been through much worse, at Charger games in January.

Afterwards, I hung out on press row, while waiting for my friend Jack to finish with his official scorer duties. After filing the official box score, he takes me into the Giants visiting dugout. Many, many people would pay top dollar for the pleasure of kicking around the Giant players used Gatorade cups and snagging a tin of official chaw that was left behind.

While standing on the edge of the infield, i thought that the grass at Petco was being MANICURED, not mowed. My hair should get such exacting care. The baseball day ended with a stroll through the tunnels leading back to the street. All in all, a great afternoon at the ballpark.

Scott Miles: This is the easiest question on the board!

April 18. Yankee Stadium. Myself and a group of about 20 Indians fans sitting in the upper deck in left field, watching the 22-4 demolition of the Yankees, going absolutely NUTS in the 14-run second inning and nearly getting in multiple fights with Yankee fans. Heck, even Kobayashi pitched well in that game.

Unreal experience, likely one that will never be matched.