UFC 134: B/R Writers Discuss the Event and Debate Possible Outcomes

UFC 134 is almost here and the MMA world is salivating at the thought of the UFC returning to Brazil, especially since three of the greatest Brazilian fighters of all time are on the main card. 

But like any other great event, this card is littered with possibilities and thousands of unanswered questions. 

Bleacher Report Featured Columnists Andrew Barr and Vince Carey are here to answer these questions. 

Since we don’t have the answer to everything, (neither one of us is Chael Sonnen), we just chose a few of our favorites and decided to tediously argue about things that may not even happen. 

Obviously we’re just two extremely intelligent men with strong opinions, but if you disagree with us (or more importantly, want to take my side) let us know in the comments section.

How Far Down the Pound for Pound Ranking Does Anderson Silva Slide, If He Loses?

Andrew Barr

A loss for Anderson will definitely edge him out of the No. 1 spot with Georges St-Pierre taking his place.

Typically, when a champion loses his title, it knocks him right out of the top 10 in the pound for pound rankings, but I don't think this will be the case for Silva. He has been dominant for such a long period of time, broken so many records and defeated such solid competition, that a loss definitely should not move him too far down the list.

Obviously, the manner in which Silva is defeated plays a large role in determining where he ends up on the P4P list.

I'm thinking if it's a close fight or the loss is in any way controversial, he only drops to fourth or fifth on the list.

If he loses decisively, I believe he'll end up around No. 8.

Vince Carey

Andrew, come on man! The No. 8 spot? 

Even with a decisive loss on Saturday I can't allow Silva to slide out of the top five. The top three is usually Silva, GSP and Aldo, but after those three it's a toss up. 

There comes a point where even if a fighter loses a fight, you have to look at his record and say "You know what, it might have just been a bad day." 

There's no chance I drop Silva below the five spot, unless he gets beaten by a score of 50-40 or something like that. 

Even if Okami finishes him (not likely), most fans will call it a fluke and move on. I'm usually not that guy, but in this case I'll have to be.

 

Andrew Barr

I see where you're coming from and I definitely respect all that Anderson has accomplished over the past few years, but there is no way I keep him in the top five with a decisive loss to Okami.

With guys out there like Jon Jones and Dominick Cruz, who are both tearing up their respective divisions, I don't see any way to leave Silva in front of them with a loss.

Sure, there's always the possibility that his loss might be a fluke, or he might just be having a bad night, but those are his problems. That kind of thing is a little too wishy-washy to base rankings on: a loss is a loss.

If he loses and it is just a fluke, then nothing is stopping him from earning a rematch, winning that fight and reclaiming his No. 1 spot.

Silva has accomplished a lot of things in the past, but the pound-for-pound rankings are meant to be current, so losing to Yushin should play a much larger role in determining Silva's rankings than any of Silva's previous victories.

It would feel weird to see Anderson outside of the top five, definitely, but I wouldn't feel right leaving him that high up after a decisive loss.

Vince Carey

I see where you're coming from, but I can't bring myself to move Cruz over Silva.

Cruz has been tearing it up the last few years, but until he manages to get a finish, I'm not giving him top 5 status.

If Silva loses, my top five goes GSP, Aldo, Jones, Okami, Silva. 

Wow that just felt weird to type. 

Either way, the fact that he could get dominated and stay in the top 10 is a testament to how good he has been.

Is Yushin Okami the Best Japanese Fighter of All Time with a Win This Weekend?

Vince Carey

Is this even a question? 

The UFC is the premier organization in MMA and even when PRIDE was in its prime it never had this kind of talent. The only other guy who has an argument is Sakuraba and he never could have won a UFC title. 

Okami will have earned my respect with a win and is undoubtedly the best Japanese fighter of all time

Andrew Barr

You make some solid points. Winning a UFC title is certainly a huge deal and a big factor when deciding where a fighter ranks on an all-time list and it would be an especially large factor for Okami, given that he would be defeating the greatest fighter of all time.

With that said, I don't think a victory over Anderson is quite enough to make Yushin the greatest Japanese fighter of all time.

If you look at Okami's record, his only really significant victory so far is his win over Nate Marquardt. Other than that, he's beat a passed-prime Evan Tanner and Anderson Silva—but the Silva victory hardly counts, considering he won by DQ. Apart from that, Okami has beaten a lot of good, but not great fighters.

Sakuraba is a legend of MMA and definitely has a more impressive resume than Okami. Kazushi has beat Royce Gracie, Quinton Jackson, Carlos Newton, Kevin Randleman, Ken Shamrock and Vitor Belfort.

Beating Anderson would be huge for Yushin and put him close to being the best Japanese fighter ever, but it's not enough. I would still have him behind Sakuraba and maybe even Shinya Aoki.

If Okami wins and then defends his title once or twice, then I'll feel comfortable calling him the best fighter to ever come out of Japan.

Vince Carey

I agree that Sakuraba has an impressive resume, but this falls under the quality over quantity category, as in a win over Anderson Silva and a UFC belt is greater than anything Sakuraba has ever done. 

Okami isn't the flashiest fighter, which has hurt him as far as gaining fans and respect, but the man wins fights and earned a shot at the belt even though it was quite obvious the UFC didn't want to make the fight unless they absolutely had to. 

Okami took out Marquardt and Tanner impressively, and if he can do the same to Silva you can't deny him the throne. 

I ask you this, if Okami finishes Silva impressively does that change your answer?

Andrew Barr

Finishing Silva would definitely help Okami's case, but it wouldn't be enough for me to put him ahead of Sakuraba.

Beating Silva and winning a UFC championship would be a greater accomplishment than any one of Kazushi's, yes. But I believe if you put together all of Sakuraba's successes over the course of his storied career and also factor in his long lasting influence on the sport, it still overshadows winning a UFC title.

It's an easy thing to say that a fighter is the greatest while they are riding high, but what if Yushin beat Silva and then lost in his first title defense and then faded from relevance?

In his lowest moments and not his highest, would people still think he was the best Japanese fighter ever?

I'm thinking, no.

That's what makes Sakuraba so great. He had a horrible decline at the end of his career and is still considered one of the best ever. If the same thing happened to Yushin, I don't think people would look at him in the way they do Kazushi, even he if was the only fighter to defeat Anderson Silva twice.

I need to see one, maybe even two, title defenses to prove to me that Okami is the real deal. Unless that happens, I won't put him ahead of the legendary Kazushi Sakuraba.

If Forrest Griffin Wins, Is He One of the 5 Best Light Heavyweights Ever?

Andrew Barr

Let me start off by saying that I love Forrest Griffin; he is my all-time favorite fighter.

That said, there is absolutely no way that a second victory over Mauricio "Shogun" Rua makes him a top five light heavyweight.

Griffin does have a very impressive resume, holding victories over the likes of Shogun, Quinton Jackson, Tito Ortiz, Chael Sonnen and Rich Franklin.

He is also a former light heavyweight champion and took part in the most important fight in UFC history: Griffin vs. Bonnar at The Ultimate Fighter 1 Finale.

However, Forrest's reign as light heavyweight champion was short and he never successfully defended his title. That's what's keeping him out of the top five.

When I look at the accomplishments of guys like Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, Dan Henderson, Frank Shamrock and Randy Couture, it's impossible to put Forrest in the top five.

If he beats Rua again, I would probably rank Griffin somewhere between seven and nine. All of the fighters I previously mentioned, plus Rashad Evans should definitely be ahead of him; that takes care of the top six.

Outside of the top six, Griffin is in the mix with Shogun, Quinton Jackson and Wanderlei Silva.

Vince Carey

I've been a huge Forrest fan as well, ever since he said he heard God yelling at him in his dreams, but it turned out it was just Chris Leben (there's an inside joke for all you TUF fans, you're welcome).

Anyway, I have to disagree with you on this one. 

While obviously Chuck, Tito and Hendo are the top three, I have Wanderlei at four and Randy currently at five. If Forrest beats Shogun, he's jumping Couture and cracking the list.

Randy spent too much of his career swinging from heavyweight to 205, and Frank Shamrock just retired too early. If he would have stayed around the sport he might be number one, but he bowed out in his prime and it is costing him.

Forrest has beaten Rampage, Ortiz and Franklin and if you throw in two wins over Shogun, I can't see him outside of the top five, especially if he gets the finish.

Andrew Barr

Wow, you really don't have Frank Shamrock in your top five? That definitely surprises me. I know he retired way too early, but the man defended the UFC light heavyweight championship four times! Then you have to take into consideration his success in Pancrase and being the first ever WEC light heavyweight champion; there's no way Frank Shamrock would be outside my top five.

The way I see it, everyone in the top five either has multiple title defenses or they have multiple title reigns. Forrest has neither of those things.

If Forrest ever makes his way back to the top of the division and captures the 205 lbs. belt again, then he will be in my top five without a doubt.

Until then, he doesn't make the cut.

Most likeable light heavyweight of all time? Sure.

Top five light heavyweight of all time? Even with another win over Shogun, I'm saying no.

Vince Carey

I can see your point about all of Shamrock's success, but I highly doubt he would have been able to hang in the current UFC, which adds to my "No Shamrocks in Rankings" rule. 

As far as multiple title defenses go, I agree but no one below him does either, other than Shamrock and Rampage (whom he beat). 

Shogun has been seen as one of the most talented light heavyweight fighters of all time, and if Forrest can somehow use his heart and game planning to beat talent once again, I have no choice but to give him a top five ranking.

If Shogun Beats Griffin, Should His Next Fight Be a No. 1 Contender Matchup?

Vince Carey

Yes, and if he pulls it off I already have an opponent in mind: Dan Henderson.

Realistically, there are only a few fights that would make sense for Rua if he wins this weekend and Henderson is the only guy who intrigues me. 

We've seen him fight Machida twice, Phil Davis is still a bit too wrestling oriented to make an exciting fight and Rashad Evans is going nowhere near anyone but the winner of Jones-Rampage.

Shogun and Hendo both put on exciting fights every time out and it would be a perfect fight to headline the first UFC on Fox card in November.

 

Andrew Barr

As much as I would love to see Shogun fight Dan Henderson, I have to disagree with you.

First off, if Henderson ends up in the UFC—which seems likely—I think he deserves an immediate title shot. They're giving Nick Diaz a title shot in his first fight back in the UFC because he was the Strikeforce welterweight champ. They should do the same thing for Dan, in principle.

Also, I think it's always a bad idea to give a fighter another shot at the belt too quickly, unless the first fight was really close.

The UFC gave Rich Franklin another shot at Anderson Silva not too long after Silva dominated and won the middleweight championship and what happened? It was practically a replay of the first fight and Rich was forced to leave the division because there was no way he could get another shot at Anderson.

Considering how badly Shogun was dominated by Jones at UFC 128 and how inconsistent Shogun has been in the UFC, the UFC should take their time before giving him another shot at the belt.

If Shogun beats Griffin, I'd like to see him win another fight before putting him in a No. 1 contender fight. That way he can prove that he definitely deserves another shot and that he is capable of competing at his best on a consistent basis.

 

Vince Carey

Wow, you're making my job tough when you throw Rich Franklin at me. 

The thing that makes this fight so unique is that there really isn't a good fight to give Shogun other than a number one contender's fight.

Machida is due for a title eliminator, but no one wants to see that fight again and Shogun would be stupid to accept a fight against Phil Davis at this point in his career. A win over Davis would do nothing to improve his stock and a loss would cement his status as a top-level gatekeeper. 

I could see them giving Henderson an immediate shot, but he would have to wait almost a year before he got one. With Jones-Rampage going down in September and Rashad Evans likely to face the winner in either December or January, it would be a terrible idea for Henderson to sit out for that long because, let's face it, he's not getting any younger.

Andrew Barr

I agree that Henderson sitting out for almost a year is a bad idea, but he has said in interviews that there are more fights in Strikeforce that interest him, so maybe he could get those out of the way while waiting for his shot. Of course, that would be risky because if he lost any of those fights, he would likely also be losing his potential shot at Jones.

Back over to Shogun, I agree that there's not a ton of fights they could give him other than a No. 1 contender's spot, but I'm sure they can come up with something. I stand by it being a bad idea to fast track him back to Jon Jones.

People are always talking about wanting Anderson Silva to go back to 205 lbs; maybe if Shogun beats Griffin they could give him that fight. Or they might be able to bring over some top talent from Strikeforce. Personally, I'd prefer to see Shogun take on Gegard Mousasi than Henderson any day.

If the UFC has absolutely no other options, giving Shogun a No. 1 contender matchup after beating a Griffin is understandable, but I think it's bad business in the long run.

I say do Machida vs. Henderson—if Hendo doesn't get any immediate crack at the belt—for the No. 1 contender spot and then find a big name from Strikeforce to fight Shogun.

Should Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira Retire If He Beats Brendan Schaub?

Andrew Barr

Absolutely.

It's a beautiful thing when a fighter retires at exactly the right time.

Just look at Chris Lytle. Could he have picked any better moment to retire than after submitting Dan Hardy earlier this month?

Too often fighters stick around for too long and it gets a little bit embarrassing to watch them go out and get dominated over and over.

I'm a big fan of Big Nog and I don't want to see that happen to him.

We all know Nogueira's career is coming to an end. In his last three fights he has been dominated by Frank Mir and Cain Velasquez and looked decent in beating Randy Couture—who was way passed his prime and since retired.

Antonio is never going to be a champion again; there's no way he will ever get passed Cain Velasquez or Junior Dos Santos. He probably couldn't beat Brock Lesnar or Shane Carwin, either.

If Nogueira beats Schaub, and that's a big if, he should go out on a high note and retire immediately.

 

Vince Carey

Wow, for such a big fan you have little faith in your boy!

Just messing with you, Andrew, but seriously why not give it one last run?

I agree that Big Nog isn't nearing a title shot anytime soon, but why not go out and right some wrongs before you retire. 

And by wrongs, I mean Frank Mir. 

It's pretty common knowledge that Nogueira was nowhere near 100% when he fought Frank Mir back at UFC 92, and he has said numerous times it's a fight he wants to get back. 

I say give the man a shot. He's a legend of the sport and he just took out one of the top prospects in the division. 

Andrew Barr

I guess another fight with Frank Mir would make sense—especially since Frank Mir has no one to fight right now—but why risk another embarrassing loss?

Honestly, I picture a rematch with Mir playing out much the same way, whether Nogueira is healthy or not.

I'm definitely not trying to say that it's impossible for Antonio to win some more fights if he beats Schaub, but I think those fights aren't worth damaging his legacy.

There's always the possibility that I'm looking at this selfishly, but I want to see Nogueira leave the sport with a big win and not with a string of losses.

 

Vince Carey

I understand the pain of watching one of your favorite fighters get embarrassed, but if you put your personal feelings aside, I think you'll agree that Nogueira deserves another shot at Mir.

Even if it were just about Big Nog's recent performances, he has said that he was fighting injured for over a year and that he feels much better after having surgery on his hips. 

Think about a BJJ specialist with sore hips. That's a worst case scenario. 

If Nogueira is actually 100%, let him keep going. It would be nice for a PRIDE legend to end his career with a decent UFC resume.  

Is Brendan Schaub a Heavyweight Title Contender If He Beats Nogueira?

Vince Carey

The short answer: yes.

Take out two straight legends and you earn yourself at least a number one contenders fight in my eyes.

Throw Schaub in there with either Frank Mir or Alistair Overeem and you have a damn good co-main event for later this year.

Both fights would seem to be terrible matchups for Schaub, as Mir has the ground game to frustrate him and Overeem makes his stand up look like a kindergartener throwing juice boxes, but if he can beat either one of them he deserves a shot.

Schaub has looked really impressive lately and especially if he knocks Big Nog out, you give the man a chance to strap some gold around his waist. 

Andrew Barr

It's hard to disagree with you, given the lack of contenders in the heavyweight division, but I want to see Schaub beat someone who is actually relevant before they give him a No. 1 contender's fight.

I think he's been very crafty in selecting his opponents. Brendan's last two fights were Gabriel Gonzaga and Mirko Cro Cop. Both those guys at one point were a big deal, but were passed their prime when Schaub fought them.

Now, he's fighting Antonio Nogueira, another legend whose best days are behind him.

I say make Schaub scrap someone who still has some fight left in them. Shane Carwin or a rematch with Roy Nelson would both be ideal fights.

Let Frank Mir and Alistair Overeem duke it out for the No. 1 contender's spot.

Vince Carey

Since I like to dress up like Joe Silva and play UFC Undisputed sometimes, I admire your gift at playing matchmaker.

But if we're going as far as making a Mir-Overeem fight, then why not set Schaub up to fight Brock Lesnar early next year?

It would give Schuab a HUGE name and easily earn him a shot by next summer, and if Lesnar wins, it gives them an excuse to give him another shot at the belt. 

This would have to be a win-win situation for the UFC, right?

 

Andrew Barr

I think fighting Brock Lesnar early next year makes a lot of sense for Schaub, but not as much sense for Lesnar.

Schaub still doesn't have much of a fan following, so if Brock lost to him, it would be devastating for him. A loss to Schaub totally removes Lesnar from title contention and then it gets difficult for the UFC to promote Brock as a main event fighter.

Lesnar should come back against an opponent that fans know is really dangerous, so that a loss won't diminish his credibility so much. When Brock comes back, a rematch with either Frank Mir or Shane Carwin would probably be best.

The more I think about it, the more Roy Nelson is the perfect opponent for Schaub, if Schaub beats Nogueira.

Nelson has a big fan following at this point, so a win over him means something. Plus, Brendan gets the chance to avenge his only career loss.

If Nelson gets passed Mirko Cro Cop at UFC 137, Nelson vs. Schaub II is the perfect fight to make.