The Buster Posey Injury: A Spirited Debate

The following is a lively exchange between two Giants fans which started the morning after the injury to Buster Posey. The names have been changed to protect the innocent and keep them gainfully employed. Expletives have been placed in quotes.

Subject: Last Night

Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:36 AM

Darrin: Could that have gone any worse? Seriously. I think some platoon time at first is in order. I'm a little dismayed by the knee-jerk posts in McCovey today, saying the play at home is not part of the game. I guarantee if Schierholtz or Cody Ross destroyed John Buck's knee in extras for a victory, there would be praise for how gritty and tough they are. It's silly. It's a dangerous game.

So do we eliminate pitching inside or the take-out at second? Both cause far more injuries than home-plate collisions, due, in most part, to the frequency of each.

The “crappy” thing is, if he makes the play his feet are still in line with the base path shielding him from that type of injury. His feet were in a horrible position. Let's just hope the injury is weeks, not months. Who knows, the kid is nails, he may be back next Friday…

Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:40 AM

Sebastian: Totally disagree. The guy should have slid. He had a lane to slide. He went out of his way to blow Posey up. Even if he did not want to hurt him, he did not need to hit him. I think it was a dirty play. I have broken down the tape like the Zapruder film. I will not be convinced otherwise.

Why can a defenseless player get blown up? That is not even allowed in football. He was defenseless. He got blown up at full speed by the 25th man on the Marlins roster. It is just not right.

Sebastian

2010 World Champions

Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:20 AM

Darrin: I agree, it sucks. It's a split-second decision. It's easy to see you have the outside lane in a slo-mo replay. However, the runner is not looking at the ball; just going full force toward the plate, in extra innings with a “whole bunch” of adrenaline pumping.

Is it unfortunate? Absolutely. But to call it dirty is a misplaced statement.

The first thing the guy did was reach down for Posey. No Pete Rose B.S. or fist-pumping. Maybe there should be some rule changes toward that end. But look at football—it's impossible to hold up in some cases with that much momentum. It's been a part of the game up to this point and will be hard to get rid of completely.

It's like leading with your head in football. It's hard to eradicate that instinct.

What about the play at second? I understand they are not as vulnerable, but that is a blatant attempt to take somebody out. Most times without even an attempt at touching the bag. They can make fun of Cousins (a guy who is trying to stay on an MLB roster) all they want at McCovey, but I guarantee you if the roles were reversed, there would be a posterized version of Jon Buck in a heap at home.

Not into it, it's blatant homerism. Although I should consider the source...

One thing is for sure, when stars get hurt, changes are made. I guarantee there will be some talk about it at the winter meetings. Have we seen the end of the franchise catcher?

Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:32 AM

Sebastian: Again, there are rules about going out of the baseline now that were not there 15-20 years ago for plays at second. Players are not allowed to be out of the reach of second base when taking a player out. The rule changed, the game changed.

Seriously, the fact that he reached down to see if Buster was okay was makes no difference. He made the wrong decision, one that may or may not be based on baseball norms. Those norms are dirty.

Maybe it is not his fault, but the fact that he thought that was OK is flat wrong. The rule is wrong. The game has changed. A second baseman can jump to avoid a slide. A catcher cannot. A runner cannot plow into a second baseman like a safety. They should not be able to plow into a catcher in this way either.

Listen, many things that have always been are flat wrong. Allowing a player to plow into someone at full speed who has no way to defend himself is not right no matter how you slice it. How is that good for the game? It does not matter whether or not it was for or against the Giants.

What matters is that play, when there was a clear and distinct alternative to what happened, should not be allowed. Darren Ford's play on Sunday was nearly identical and he slid. Compare the tapes. Posey was on the other side of the plate. Kuiper said this morning that catchers used to block the plate like a wall and that has changed. As it should have.

The game evolves, and it is not about old school versus new school. It is about common sense and sustainability. Football made those changes and for every defenseless player that still gets lit up there are four or five plays where a DB or linebacker holds up for knowledge of the rule.

The notion that all brainpower and rationality goes out the window because of adrenaline or "heat of the moment" is just completely overdone in my opinion. People make informed decisions in microsecond increments all day everyday. The heat of battle does not change that.

The play was dirty, but not necessarily by a dirty player. He had the choice to go out of the path of home plate to blow Buster up because that is what is allowed. If that is not allowed, he slides into home. They do not allow that in college and wouldn't you know, people don’t blow catchers up. They have adapted. It’s not rocket science or a huge evolutionary leap.

Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:48 AM

Darrin: Sure a second baseman can jump, but look at the DL. Littered with middle infielders. It still happens! The last suspension I can remember was Albert Belle after he gave the forearm shiver to Fernando Vina. How many more times does that play happen than a play at the plate?

To say people don't make mistakes in the heat of the moment is ludicrous. Look at any battle or war—snap judgments are made and they are not always right. To avoid that tired and misplaced analogy, look at Chris Webber's timeout.

It will still happen—maybe with less frequency, a la college, but it will still happen. Did Cousins make a poor call? Maybe. But to call it dirty is silly. That implies intent to harm like Andrew Bynum last week.

You know if one of our guys did it you would feel differently. Ford slid because he is a speedster—you don't see Jose Reyes bowling catchers over. How many times have we (you and I) ripped Natron or Andrew about the Ray Fosse play?

The whole point of the first post is that you and I are not having this conversation unless it's Posey that gets injured. That bothers me. Everyone hops on their soapbox when it's their team. We are all about safety and overhauling the rules when one of our studs gets hurt. If Cousins was a catcher, nobody would give a “poo.” That is patently unfair, it's treated like a business and QBs, guys like Posey etc. are far more valuable to the business.

I agree the game does evolve and that's an excellent point. Maybe it needs to; they used to throw base runners out by hitting them. I'm not gonna sit here and say I am old school—I'm not. But this is still going to happen even with overhauling the rules.

You give a guy a choice between the absolute certainty of bowling a catcher over and knocking the ball out to score a game-winning (or any) run and sliding and exposing themselves to getting tagged, you know what most are going to do.

They will take the fine/suspension and move on. How many times have you seen the ruling at second upheld in your life? Twice? We both watch a lot of baseball and I have seen it once or twice. Maybe the frequency will decrease, but it's still going to happen.

I feel sympathy for guys in the NFL; it completely favors the offense. There is no recourse for defensive players, while the offense gets a ton of leeway. I understand both sides. I don't want a bunch of Al Toon's running around because they took too many hits over the middle. It's a balancing act, but maybe it's time to tip the scales...

Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:13 PM

Sebastian: This is not the first time the conversation has come up. It is just that injuries like this are always the impetus for change. It should not be that way. The rule should have been changed long ago.

Ultimately the question should be how is it good for baseball to have players be allowed to plow into a defenseless player at full speed? Give me a good answer to that and I will cede my point.

No other player on the diamond other than catchers has to face this kind of danger. A DL stint is different than what has happened to Posey and Santana in the last year alone. It is not right. It literally never happens in college because it is outlawed. If you don’t have the choice you don’t do it.

You can make the wrong decision in the heat of the moment, sure, but you run through the options. If it is not an option, it won’t be a choice.

BTW Darren Ford would not have been the first "speedster" to try and plow a catcher. That is not the point.

May 26, 2011 at 12:55 PM

Darrin: Off topic, and not the point, but be serious, a guy like Ford or Reyes is going to slide nine times out of 10. Period. Carl Crawford plowing into Varitek last year is the only thing that leaps to mind, though Varitek was smothering the plate.

A second baseman's career is literally shorter than any position in baseball with the exception of pitcher. Are catchers just "tougher?" Or do they face more constant harm? I guess it's catastrophic injury (Santana and Posey) vs. continual DL stints (Roberts, Kinsler) which eventually shorten the length of your career.

And yes, it still happens in college, trust me. I've covered games where a throw arrived in line with the runner, or the throw pulled the catcher into the runner—guess what? Neither gave way. Gross sound. No pads, it sounds like meat being thrown against concrete.

Was it intentional on either part? Probably not. I will cede the point that there are a lot less crazy injuries in NCAA ball. How much of that has to do with the players at the major league level being overwhelmingly bigger and faster. I don't know, but I can venture a guess.

I will answer your question, although we both know you aren't going to give in. What about a guy, Varitek, who openly welcomes contact and literally blocks the plate? If we are to implement the rules you are talking about, the catcher has to concede the plate correct?

You can't sit on top of it and give the runner no choice. Not saying this is the case with Posey, but I'd love to hear Kuiper's comments relayed to a guy like Varitek. He's spit dip on your shoes.

Now we are getting into a very fine line as to who has rights to the dish. Furthermore, the catcher is always helpless. Anytime you have an stationary individual focusing on an incoming object while guarding a piece of real estate from another individual running at full speed, the former is always helpless.

The catcher, too, has a right to remove himself from the play and let the ball go by and escape impending danger, does he not? Aren't you helpless in the box if somebody throws 96 to the dome? It's a dangerous game, with the play at the plate maybe cracking the top three in terms of the risk posed, due to frequency (or lack thereof) alone.

Bottom line, we (You and I) are not having this spirited debate if Posey doesn't get hurt. Period. That bothers me. We are going to miss him and that frustration is understandable, but let's not be blinded by our allegiance, maybe you're not. Maybe I am wrong and outdated.

These gentleman are paid a lot of money to take risks inherent to the sport. They know the score. I want to see an anonymous poll of catchers to see how they feel about the changes you are talking about.

I guarantee you Posey will say it was clean and a freak accident, I will put money on it, but I'm sure that will be him playing nice in front of the media.... I guarantee most catchers will do the same. Is that bad for business?

Sure. But as you know, I've never shied away from my anti-business stance.

Power to The People

Thu, May 26, 2011 at 1:07 PM

Sebastian: You are not going to give in either. You have your opinion and I have mine. The reality is the player coming in is also at risk and for what? A run? Why does this need to go on? What are we proving? Hockey players and football player and baseball players never used to wear helmets either?

You know what? The game evolved.

Make it illegal to try and dislodge the ball and nobody would try. In college you try and dislodge the ball and you are out and runners go back to their bases. It is a simple fix, really. I just don't understand what the value is to the game or the players of allowing it to go on.

Again, this is not the first time the topic has come up. It has been talked about for years. What pissed me off is that this injury happened because of the MLB's inability to adapt.

Sure we are talking about it today because it was Buster who it happened to, but the conversation took place last year after Santana broke his leg.

The conversation would have taken place no matter what catcher suffered that horrific injury. That I know.

The straw man in your argument is asking if we would be talking about this if it were not Buster. That is not the point. The point is that for a player to go across the plate, out of the way to intentionally blow up the catcher is wrong.

There is no need. The only reason he did it is because it is legal in a grey portion of the rulebook and he is viewed as a gamer for doing it. That is wrong.

I don't understand how you can’t see that and that is why you will never cede. You believe it is part of the game. I believe it has no place in the game.

A player who takes a pitch to the face has a helmet specifically designed to protect him from the ball. A catcher has nothing designed to protect him from being run over by a player at full speed. It makes zero sense.

Thu, May 26, 2011 at 3:13 PM

Darrin: Sure I will, I don't know how many times I've said, maybe it's time for a change. The point of the my initial statement was expressing displeasure at the outrage on McCovey (and later by you) that this was a long time coming.

Come on.

It was not an issue on that site or between you and I until today. There is no straw man there, that is the concrete heart of the matter. It's not even an argument, it's a statement.

(Now for the straw man) I am simply pointing out that if there is no place or value for that in the game then what about pitching inside? What does a pitcher have to gain? Control of the plate? Intimidation? At the risk of someone's life? (Follow along...)

What about the take out at second? That is about as blatant as you can get. Were not even talking runs here, were talking avoiding a double play.

If batters have helmets (although they still get hit in the face all of the time, probably more than catchers suffer injuries while getting blown up) and second baseman can jump, then catchers can simply choose not to make a play on the ball if they feel it is too close for comfort.

People do it all the time, ask Ramon Hernandez. Dude's knee has been torn up, at least once on a player sliding into him at home.

Why not remove all three if you are so concerned with player safety? I would say the first two are far worse than a catcher getting bowled over. Would you rather stand in as Cousins plows you or take a 96 mph fastball to the head?

No grey area there, just lights out. Death, fractured face, loss of vision. Not broken Tibia and ligament damage. It is a dangerous game. I don't know how you remove all of it.

The straw man in your argument is the ubiquitous "we" had this conversation after Santana last year. The royal "we."? The baseball world? Sure. You and I? Absolutely not. We have literally made fun of Fosse for the All-Star Game collision, maybe you were hiding your concern.

I don't remember McCovey running a PSA. Don't act like you were a hardened advocate for catcher's safety until today. You and I probably never have this conversation without Buster's injury. That's not an argument.

The only reason we are talking about it is that our best position player got rolled up on a play and we are pissed about it and lashing out. To call it anything else at this time is disingenuous. Of course it makes zero sense; we lost our best player in a game in May to a guy who can't carry Buster's jock.

Maybe this is the impetus for change, it probably is. But as grey and murky as the line is now, how much more muddled would it be with more rules implemented? I don't think it's as simple as making it illegal to try and dislodge the ball. Injuries will still happen, unintentional or not.

I don't know how you regulate it, maybe that's short sighted on my part.

I will admit that not being allowed to bowl over the catcher is not a bad call. I don't think last night is a good example, but there have been plenty of plays where catchers have been destroyed for no reason (I use the term "no reason" loosely as a game-winning run for the Marlins in May has very little use to me).

How about this, if a catcher is in blocking the plate (Varitek) it's game-on and the current rules apply.

However, if the catcher is out of the basepath no contact can be made. I still think there is a ton of grey there, just like Eli Whiteside's head.

If it got Buster back for the year, I cede my entire point. We're not so different you and I...

Thu, May 26, 2011 at 6:02 PM

Sebastian: When Santana got hurt last year there was a big discussion on McCovey about this topic. Keith Law has written about how dumb it is. I don't think it is fair to say it's not important because you and I haven't argued about it to date.

Pitching inside is different than beaming someone which is different than getting run over as a defenseless catcher.

They did make changes to the rules to prevent bean ball wars. They did make changes to the sliding into second rule. This is another rule change that needs to take place.

The play is dumb. I disagree with your comparisons and think you are flat wrong here. We are clearly not getting anywhere as I see the play as unnecessary and you don't.

That is fine. Just know that I believed this before last night happened. Last night just brought it home.

Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors as this was sent from my iPhone

Fri, May 27, 2011 at 7:59 AM

Darrin: Disagree, I think we are getting somewhere. Obviously you follow McCovey closer than I do, so I can't refute anything there. I'm not saying the baseball world hasn't talked about it. I still stand by the fact that this exchange never occurs without Posey's injury.

The take out and pitching inside comparisons are right on. How is the play at second any different than the play at the plate? The only difference is that it happens more often.

That is a blatant attempt to slide at someone and prevent an out. I'm not talking about beaning anyone, you are putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about pitching inside.

How many times have guys intentionally thrown at somebody's head and hit them? Piazza and Clemens, maybe. It usually sails over someone's head to send a message.

I'm talking about pitching inside and one gets away, that is far more dangerous than the play at the plate. The question here is how do you legislate safety while not losing some part of the game?

Was Wednesday unnecessary? Sure. Was it a dirty play, like a bean ball or Belle's forearm shiver? I don't think so. I think it was a freak accident, especially if you look at the way he folds up his leg.

Again, I guarantee Posey will say it was a clean play. I think the crux of the argument here is how do you regulate the play at the plate without giving either the catcher or the runner a huge advantage?

I don't think it has to be part of the game, not by a long shot. But how do you come up with the rule(s)?

I don't think it is as cut and dry as you make it out to be. This is not college, these guys are bigger, stronger and faster, injuries will happen around the plate.

Fri, May 27, 2011 at 1:52 PM

Sebastian: BTW here is a Posey quote for you from Baggs:

"Posey said he doesn't want to vilify Cousins, but felt he left him a lane. "He chose to come at me." Feels MLB should look at those plays."

Best,

Seabass

Fri, May 27, 2011 at 2:30 PM

Darrin: Saw it, I stand corrected. Just give me one thing: Tell me you see the parallel between the takeout, pitching inside and the play at the plate? They are all dangerous. I'm basically making you look fantastic in the whole exchange...which will now be immortalized.

Darrin