Every NFL Team's Best Non-Hall of FamerJuly 24, 2018
Every NFL Team's Best Non-Hall of Famer
Next week in Canton, Ohio, contributor Bobby Beathard, linebacker Robert Brazile, safety Brian Dawkins, guard Jerry Kramer, linebacker Ray Lewis, wide receiver Randy Moss, wide receiver Terrell Owens and linebacker Brian Urlacher will be enshrined as Pro Football Hall of Famers.
At that point, the Hall of Fame will contain 318 busts. But it still feels as though a lot of deserving former players have been left out.
Taking primary statistics, Pro Bowls, All-Pro honors, team success and longevity into account, and looking only at players who are eligible, here's a glimpse at every team's best player without a gold jacket.
Arizona Cardinals: QB Jim Hart
Former Arizona Cardinals quarterback Jim Hart doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, but the Cards don't have any Canton snubs. Larry Wilson, Roger Wehrli, Dan Dierdorf, Jackie Smith and Aeneas Williams are all where they belong, but Hart deserves credit for putting together four consecutive Pro Bowl seasons in the 1970s.
He also gets points for longevity.
Hart spent 18 years on the Arizona roster and was the team's regular starter in 13 of those seasons. He didn't win a single playoff game while surrounded by poor supporting casts, but when he retired in 1984, he had the third-highest passing yardage total in NFL history (behind only Fran Tarkenton and Johnny Unitas).
Atlanta Falcons: OT Mike Kenn
Longtime Atlanta Falcons center Jeff Van Note made more Pro Bowls (six) than longtime offensive tackle Mike Kenn (five), but Kenn is the only non-Hall of Famer in Falcons history with multiple All-Pro nods (two) and at least a handful of Pro Bowl honors.
He was dominant at left tackle throughout the first half of the 1980s, but he remained a stalwart in that spot from 1978 all the way through 1994, never playing for another team.
Kenn, Van Note and five-time Pro Bowl linebacker Tommy Nobis don't get a lot of love because the teams they played on stunk. But all three deserve more credit, and Kenn stands out for being the the biggest ironman among that group of honorable mentions.
Baltimore Ravens: CB Chris McAlister
This'll go to former superstar safety Ed Reed if Reed isn't elected as soon as he becomes eligible next year, but for now, McAlister edges out Peter Boulware, Jamal Lewis, Michael McCrary and every other non-Hall of Famer from that historically dominant 2000 Super Bowl-winning Baltimore Ravens defense.
McAlister intercepted four passes during that 2000 campaign, and he also had a back-breaking pick at a crucial moment in Super Bowl XXXV. He was just 23 at the time, and he went on to make three Pro Bowls and earn an All-Pro nod.
His 26 career interception won't likely be enough to get McAlister into Canton, but Boulware, Lewis and McCrary were smaller factors that year, Lewis was a Pro Bowler just once, and the other two defenders weren't in Baltimore as long as McAlister was.
Buffalo Bills: LB Mike Stratton
The Buffalo Bills have never won a Super Bowl, but they won back-to-back AFL Championships in 1964 and 1965. That probably doesn't happen without linebacker Mike Stratton, who was an All-Pro in both of those seasons and was an All-Star in six consecutive campaigns between 1963 and 1968.
The Bills defense was lights-out during that run, and credit should also go to star defenders Tom Sestak, Butch Byrd and George Saimes, none of whom are in the Hall of Fame despite incredible AFL resumes.
It probably doesn't help that they were all good together, prior to the 1970 merger. Stratton gets credit for producing for a longer period of time that his peers, and for remaining effective after the merger. The icing on the cake is that he was the man behind "the hit heard 'round the world.”
Carolina Panthers: DT Kris Jenkins
Not a single Hall of Famer spent the majority of his career with the Carolina Panthers. That might change when recently-retired wide receiver Steve Smith becomes eligible, but don't expect anybody else to make a run at Canton until then.
Among eligible former Panthers position players, only defensive tackle Kris Jenkins has multiple All-Pro nods on his resume. Jenkins was one of the most dominant defenders in the game in 2002 and 2003, but he didn't do it long enough, starting just 79 games and making just three Pro Bowls during his seven seasons in Carolina.
He's here by default, because the only other viable options are tight end Wesley Walls (made five Pro Bowls but was never an All-Pro in seven seasons with the team) and wide receiver Muhsin Muhammad (over 11,000 career yards but just two Pro Bowl nods and one All-Pro honor in 11 seasons there).
Chicago Bears: C Jay Hilgenberg
This is a toss-up between two centers, both of whom might ultimately deserve love from Canton. Jay Hilgenberg went to seven consecutive Pro Bowls with the team in the 1980s and 1990s and was a key member of that 1985 Super Bowl team, while Olin Kreutz went to six straight Pro Bowls in the 2000s and was an All-Pro on that 2006 Super Bowl-losing team.
Kreutz has an advantage when it comes to longevity with the franchise, but Hilgenberg's team actually won the Lombardi Trophy, and he has a 2-1 edge when it comes to All-Pro honors.
Regardless, both should eventually wind up in the Hall of Fame.
Cincinnati Bengals: WR Chad Johnson
Yes, Ken Anderson, Willie Anderson, Boomer Esiason and Lemar Parrish are all legendary Cincinnati Bengals without spots in Canton, but we're going with Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson here because he was more dominant at his position than any of those players.
Ken Anderson and Esiason were All-Pros just once each, Parrish was never an All-Pro and Willie Anderson made just four Pro Bowls as a right tackle, not a blindside protector. But only 16 players have recorded more 1,000-yard seasons than Johnson (seven), and in his prime he was right there with Hall of Famers Terrell Owens and Marvin Harrison from a numbers standpoint.
It's a shame he wasn't a factor beyond the age of 31, because it'll be hard for him to get into Canton while ranking out of the top 30 in terms of catches, receiving yards and touchdown receptions, but Johnson's credentials are sneakily better than any other non-Hall of Fame former Bengal.
And even if he had the stats, you'd have to wonder if his reputation would hurt his candidacy.
Cleveland Browns: OT Dick Schafrath
The Cleveland Browns were a powerhouse for much of the 1960s, and Hall of Fame backs Jim Brown and Leroy Kelly get most of the credit for that. But Dick Schafrath manned the left side of Cleveland's vaunted offensive line while paving the way for both of those backs. He was an All-Pro in three consecutive seasons and was either an All-Pro or a Pro Bowler every year between 1963 and 1969.
He was also an ironman, having missed just one game in 10 years between 1962 and 1971. And Browns backs won seven rushing titles during his career as a starter at left tackle.
It's shocking he's never strongly been considered for the Hall of Fame. No other former Brown made close to as much of an impact.
Dallas Cowboys: LB Chuck Howley
There are only six men on the planet who played in the NFL in the last 75 years, earned five or more first-team All-Pro nods and are not in the Pro Football Hall of Fame despite being eligible. Former Dallas Cowboys linebacker Chuck Howley is one of those six men.
Howley also played a major role on two Super Bowl teams. He won a Lombardi Trophy in the 1971 season, and one year prior, he became the first and only player in NFL history to win Super Bowl MVP as a member of the losing team.
Howley has been victimized by the fact the Cowboys had so many stars in his time. He might be the most glaring Hall of Fame snub there is.
Denver Broncos: LB Randy Gradishar
This one was a struggle, because linebacker Karl Mecklenburg was a six-time Pro Bowler and three-time All-Pro for some great Denver Broncos teams in the 1980s and 1990s, linebacker Randy Gradishar was a seven-time Pro Bowler and two-time All-pro for some great Broncos teams in the 1970s and 1980s and center Tom Nalen was an ironman, a two-time All-Pro and a two-time Super Bowl champion for some great Broncos teams in the 1990s and 2000s.
But Gradishar has the advantage when it comes to Pro Bowls, as well as the fact he was the league's Defensive Player of the Year in 1978.
The Orange Crush defense deserves a representative in Canton, and Gradishar has the credentials. That being said, all three deserve strong consideration, along with Steve Atwater and Louis Wright.
Come to think of it, the Broncos have received a raw deal Hall of Fame-wise.
Detroit Lions: DT Alex Karras
With Calvin Johnson not yet eligible, three-time All-Pro defensive tackle Alex Karras is the clear-cut Detroit Lions representative on this list. He was a four-time Pro Bowler, and he missed just one game due to injury in his 12-season career.
A 1963 gambling suspension could be a factor, but Packers great Paul Hornung was busted for the same offense and his bust has resided in Canton for more than three decades. Hornung experienced more team success and was the 1961 MVP, but Karras had a longer, more consistent career and received more Pro Bowl and All-Pro honors.
He also accomplished quite a lot more than former teammate Dick LeBeau, who was enshrined in 2010.
Green Bay Packers: S LeRoy Butler
Now that five-time All-Pro and five-time champion Jerry Kramer is finally being enshrined in Canton, defensive back LeRoy Butler is the next eligible former Green Bay Packer waiting to be inducted into the Hall of Fame.
The four-time All-Pro played a key role on both Packers Super Bowl teams in the late-1990s, recording a crucial sack in Super Bowl XXXI. He spent 11 seasons as a regular starter in Green Bay, missing just four games over the first 10 of those campaigns, and he finished his career with 38 picks, 20.5 sacks and 13 forced fumbles.
This past year, Butler was a Hall of Fame semifinalist for the first time. With Kramer through, he could make a larger push next time around.
Houston Texans: OT Chester Pitts
One day, J.J. Watt will inevitably represent the Houston Texans in Canton. But he, Andre Johnson and Arian Foster aren't yet close to eligible, leaving us with few options for a team that has only been around since 2002.
That leaves us in a weird spot with former offensive lineman Chester Pitts, who never made a Pro Bowl but started each of the first 112 games in Texans history. An original Texan and a reliable ironman, he isn't a Hall of Famer but holds down this spot by default for now.
Indianapolis Colts: C Jeff Saturday
Marvin Harrison is in, Peyton Manning will be in on the first ballot, but the Indianapolis Colts offense was so damn good in the 2000s that it deserves at least one more representative in Canton. That could be the still-ineligible Reggie Wayne, but with Harrison enshrined, center Jeff Saturday and running back Edgerrin James are clearly the top two eligible candidates from Indy.
Saturday has the edge over James in terms of Super Bowls (he was there in 2006, James was not), Pro Bowls (six to four) and All-Pro nods (two to one), and he made pretty much every snap Manning took between 2000 and 2010. He joined the team's Ring of Honor in 2017 and was nominated for Canton without becoming a finalist.
It'll take time, but he should eventually gain a spot.
Jacksonville Jaguars: OT Tony Boselli
Like the Texans and Panthers, the Jacksonville Jaguars are too young to possess any glaring Hall of Fame snubs, but the first draft pick in team history looks as though he'll eventually get in.
At the very least, former offensive tackle Tony Boselli is obviously the greatest Canton-eligible former Jaguar.
The five-time Pro Bowler and three-time All-Pro (he's the only player in team history with more than one All-Pro nod) has been a Hall of Fame finalist the last two seasons, so he has a major advantage over zero-time All-Pros Jimmy Smith and Fred Taylor.
Kansas City Chiefs: S Johnny Robinson
You've probably noticed that AFL legends don't get a love of respect from Pro Football Hall of Fame voters, and the absence of Kansas City Chiefs great Johnny Robinson epitomizes that. In fact, Terez Paylor of Yahoo Sports wrote recently about Robinson as an example of how extreme the Hall of Fame backlog has become.
Paylor believes an old bias against the AFL continues to hurt the legendary safety, who has been a Canton finalist on six occasions. You could make the same argument about Stratton, Schafrath and even Robinson's Kansas City teammate, offensive tackle Jim Tyrer.
Robinson and Tyrer were both first-team All-Pros six times (along with Alan Faneca, they're the only Hall of Fame-eligible players in football history who aren't in the Hall of Fame despite more than five All-Pro nods), they both won three AFL Championships and they were key members of the 1969 Chiefs team that won Super Bowl IV.
Tyrer won't come up in Hall of Fame conversations because he shot his wife before committing suicide in 1980, but there's no excuse for Robinson's exclusion.
"He should have been in long ago," Dallas Morning News columnist and Hall of Fame voter Rick Gosselin told Paylor of Robinson. "But there are a lot of great players that slip through the cracks."
Los Angeles Chargers: DE Leslie O'Neal
The football world continues to wait for former San Diego Chargers head coach Don Coryell to make the Hall of Fame cut, but on the field the debate probably comes down to quarterback John Hadl or pass-rusher Leslie O'Neal.
The former was a six-time Pro Bowler, an AFL champion and an All-Pro who led the league in passing yardage in three seasons, while the latter was a six-time Pro Bowler who ranks tied for 13th on the all-time sack list with 132.5.
Hadl's numbers were fantastic at the time, but most of that came in the AFL and his rated-based stats still don't compare well enough to his peers. O'Neal had as many sacks as Lawrence Taylor, and he's one of only four players in NFL history with more than six 12-sack seasons (along with Hall of Famers Reggie White, Kevin Greene and Bruce Smith).
Sure enough, O'Neal was a semifinalist on this year's ballot for the first time since he became eligible more than a decade ago.
Los Angeles Rams: WR Torry Holt
Eight former Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams have made seven or more Pro Bowls, and seven of those players are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
That leaves Torry Holt, who twice led the league in receiving yards and is one of just 18 players in NFL history with more than 13,000 yards. Throw in that he also played a huge role in the team's Super Bowl XXXIV victory over the Tennessee Titans (he caught a team-high seven passes for 109 yards and a touchdown), and it's shocking Holt hasn't even been a finalist for Canton yet.
Former teammate Isaac Bruce put up bigger career numbers because of his longevity, but Holt was more consistent and more productive on a per-game basis, and he went to three extra Pro Bowls and was an All-Pro (which Bruce never was).
Voters have been working to clear a wide receiver backlog, but it's probably only a matter of time for both Bruce and Holt.
Miami Dolphins: LB Zach Thomas
That exclusive club consisting of the only six Canton-eligible NFLers from the last 75 years who aren't in the Hall of Fame despite five or more All-Pro honors? Former Miami Dolphins linebacker Zach Thomas is a member.
Only Dan Marino and Bob Griese were elected to more Pro Bowls with Miami than Thomas, who received seven Pro Bowl nods over the course of a 12-year run in which he recorded over 1,600 tackles. He was also incredibly reliable, playing in at least 13 games in 11 of his 13 seasons (including a swan song in Dallas).
Inexplicably, though, Thomas hasn't even come close to the Hall of Fame.
Minnesota Vikings: G Steve Hutchinson
It should only be a matter of time for the third member of that club, guard Steve Hutchinson, who was utterly dominant during five seasons with the Seattle Seahawks and six with the Minnesota Vikings.
In addition to those five All-Pro honors, he was a seven-time Pro Bowler (the majority of his accolades came in Minnesota), with all seven of those seasons coming consecutively during a stretch in which he missed zero games.
This was Hutchinson's first year of eligibility, and he was one of 15 finalists on the modern-era ballot. That probably indicates he's a lot closer than Jim Marshall, a Purple People Eater who shined for 19 seasons and 270 games in Minnesota but hasn't been a finalist in recent years.
New England Patriots: DL Richard Seymour
With time, you'd have to think plenty of members of the ongoing New England Patriots dynasty will earn busts in Canton. Who will be the first Super Bowl champion Patriot to be elected to the Hall of Fame? With Tom Brady, Rob Gronkowski and Adam Vinatieri still active, the inside track might belong to former defensive lineman Richard Seymour, who was a key member of the first three New England Super Bowl teams in 2001, 2003 and 2004.
Seymour was an All-Pro in '03, '04 and '05 and a Pro Bowler every season between 2002 and 2006. He also made a pair of Pro Bowls in the twilight of his career with the Oakland Raiders, giving him seven Pro Bowl campaigns to go along with three rings.
That cemented his spot alongside on Warren Sapp on the league's 2000s All-Decade Team, which was enough for him to be a semifinalist in his first year of Hall of Fame eligibility in 2018.
Don't be surprised if he gets in soon.
New Orleans Saints: LB Pat Swilling
The only Hall of Fame-eligible non-Hall of Famer who was an All-Pro more than once with the New Orleans Saints is former star pass-rusher Pat Swilling, who was an All-Pro twice in the early-1990s and led the league in sacks in 1992.
Swilling's career sack total of 107.5 probably won't be enough for him to break into Canton, but he did make five Pro Bowls and force a ridiculous 36 fumbles. And beyond his seven-year tenure in New Orleans he had a three-interception campaign in Detroit and a 13-sack season in Oakland.
He might not be a Hall of Famer, but with Rickey Jackson in, Swilling is the team's top honorable mention until Drew Brees becomes eligible.
New York Giants: DB Jimmy Patton
It's hard to believe former New York Giants defensive back Jimmy Patton has never been a Hall of Fame finalist, considering that he's a member of that six-man club containing HOF-eligible players who aren't in Canton despite having five-plus All-Pro nods.
Patton played a huge role on the NFL champion 1956 team and was a superstar on the 1958 team that lost to the Baltimore Colts in "The Greatest Game Ever Played." He was a Pro Bowler and an All-Pro every year between 1958 and 1962, and it's no coincidence that the Giants were a juggernaut during that stretch.
When he retired in 1966, only two players in league history (Night Train Lane and Emlen Tunnell) had more interceptions than his 52.
Phil Simms was never an All-Pro and Tiki Barber and Jessie Armstead received than honor just once each, so the only former Giant that holds a candle to Patton is receiver Del Shofner. Shofner is also a member of that aforementioned five-All-Pro-no-Hall-of-Fame club, but he lacked consistency, and many of his accolades came before he was a member of the Giants.
New York Jets: C Kevin Mawae
Looking only at his eight seasons with the New York Jets, center Kevin Mawae would probably take a backseat here to two-time sack king (and longtime single-season sack record-holder) Mark Gastineau as well as five-time AFL All-Pro and Super Bowl champion Larry Grantham. The Jets didn't experience much team success with Mawae, and he was a first-team All-Pro just twice during his tenure with the team.
But Mawae's longevity has to be considered. Originally a Seattle Seahawk, he missed just two games during his first 11 seasons in the league. Then he joined the Tennessee Titans after his 12th season, adding two more Pro Bowl nods and another All-Pro honor to his resume during an impressive four-season run to conclude a hell of a career.
Mawae finished up with eight Pro Bowl campaigns out of 16, which certainly places him in Hall of Fame circles.
Oakland Raiders: WR Cliff Branch
This was one of the toughest decisions involved in this exercise, because you could make strong arguments that former Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders Lester Hayes and Steve Wisniewski deserve more consideration for Canton.
Cliff Branch actually earned fewer Pro Bowl nods (four) than Wisniewski (eight) and Hayes (five), but he was a first-team All-Pro three times (compared to just two for Wisniewski and one for Hayes) and played a big role on all three Raiders Super Bowl teams (1976, 1980, 1983). He caught 14 passes in those Super Bowls, scoring three touchdowns.
He loses some points for a lack of longevity, but Hayes fed too much off one big season (he was Defensive Player of the Year in his only All-Pro campaign) and Wisniewski was dominant when the team was not.
Philadelphia Eagles: QB Donovan McNabb
Former Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb once took the team to four consecutive NFC Championship Games, and the Eagles won 92 of his 142 starts under center. He, Reggie White, Brian Dawkins, Chuck Bednarik, Pete Pihos and Jason Peters are the only Eagles ever to make more than five Pro Bowls. White, Dawkins, Bednarik and Pihos are Hall of Famers and Peters will likely one day be inducted as well.
At the very least, that makes McNabb the leader of the pack among eligible non-Hall of Famers out of Philly, ahead of Randall Cunningham (four Pro Bowls, and only three with the Eagles), Mike Quick (a two-time All-Pro wide receiver who just wasn't good enough for long enough) and Harold Carmichael (a nice long career but never an All-Pro).
Pittsburgh Steelers: G Alan Faneca
We've mentioned Howley, Thomas, Hutchinson, Patton and Shofner. The final member of that club containing six players who have been first-team All-Pros five times and aren't in the Hall of Fame is former Pittsburgh Steelers guard Alan Faneca.
But Faneca is the only player with six All-Pro honors, which is as many as surefire Hall of Famers Tony Gonzalez and Joe Thomas. Throw in that he played a key role on a Super Bowl team and that he also made two Pro Bowls with the Jets, and he's a no-brainer Hall of Famer.
He's been a finalist in all three years he's been eligible, so I'd expect it to come soon. That said, few would argue if overdue defensive end L.C. Greenwood snuck in first.
San Francisco 49ers: RB Roger Craig
The San Francisco 49ers have been treated well by Hall of Fame voters, leaving former running back Roger Craig as the only notable former star who hasn't been honored in Canton.
Craig went over 1,000 yards as both a rusher and a receiver in 1985, he made three Pro Bowls beyond that, and he is one of just 12 players in league history with 8,000-plus yards as a runner and 4,000 or more as a receiver.
He also played a major role on three Super Bowl teams, compiling 410 scrimmage yards and four touchdowns in the three Super Bowl victories he was a part of.
That gives him a clear advantage over former defensive tackle Bryant Young, who was a four-time Pro Bowler with an impressive 89.5 career sacks but didn't experience close to as much team success.
Seattle Seahawks: RB Shaun Alexander
You get the feeling recent editions of the Seattle Seahawks contain several future Hall of Famers and/or Hall of Fame snubs (Russell Wilson, Earl Thomas, Richard Sherman, Bobby Wagner), but until those guys are eligible the team's top non-Hall of Famer has to be the only MVP in franchise history.
That would be running back Shaun Alexander, who won said award when he rushed for 1,880 yards and scored a ridiculous 28 touchdowns while helping the Seahawks make a Super Bowl run in 2005. That was Alexander's third (and last) Pro Bowl season, and it marked the fifth consecutive campaign in which he went over 1,100 yards rushing.
Alexander didn't do much beyond those five great seasons, so a lack of longevity hurts. That said, running back shelf lives have become so short that the Canton standards might be starting to change at that position.
Terrell Davis got in with just four 1,000-yard seasons and three Pro Bowl nods, so there's a chance.
Regardless, there isn't a Canton-eligible former Seahawk who has close to as many accomplishments as Alexander.
* Steve Hutchinson was a three-time Pro Bowler in Seattle, but we've listed him with the Vikings as he spent more time and accomplished more in Minnesota.
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: S John Lynch
This is basically a tie between safety John Lynch and cornerback Ronde Barber, both of whom deserve to eventually land in Canton for the roles they played with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
Barber was a five-time Pro Bowler and three-time All-Pro who played a silly 241 games, all in Tampa. Lynch was a nine-time Pro Bowler and two-time All-Pro who played 164 games with the Bucs but also concluded his career with four Pro Bowl seasons in Denver.
He's been a Hall of Fame finalist in each of the last five years, so it might only be a matter of time.
That stint with the Broncos is why Lynch is officially our top former Buc without a bust in the Hall of Fame, but nobody would fault you for thinking Barber was an even greater Buccaneer.
Tennessee Titans: QB Steve McNair
Steve McNair won't likely be posthumously elected to the Hall of Fame, mainly because the former Tennessee Titans star will have trouble overcoming an inevitable backlog at his position. Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning and Philip Rivers all have stronger resumes.
That said, McNair has to be considered the top non-Hall of Famer in that team's history. He led the franchise to its only Super Bowl appearance in 1999, made the Pro Bowl in three of the ensuing six seasons and was the league's co-MVP in 2003.
That gives him an advantage over guard Bob Talamini, who was a part of three AFL championship teams and was a three-time All-Pro in the 1960s, albeit in an inferior league.
McNair ranks out of the top 40 all time in passing yardage and touchdowns, but he deserves credit for his 91-62 win-loss record and tough-as-nails reputation. He is one of the hardest-grinding quarterbacks in league history, and his highly successful team adopted that famous mentality.
Washington Redskins: OT Joe Jacoby
It's a crime that Russ Grimm is the only former member of the "Hogs" in the Hall of Fame. Those historically dominant offensive lines helped the Washington Redskins win three Super Bowls in the span of a decade between 1982 and 1991, and Grimm was joined by star linemen Joe Jacoby and Jeff Bostic in all three of those championship campaigns.
The most obvious snub is Jacoby, who made as many Pro Bowls as Grimm (four apiece) and was a first-team All-Pro twice. And while he wasn't dominant for a long stretch (all four of his Pro Bowl campaigns came consecutively), he gets points for longevity (he was an effective starter for 12 seasons).
Joe Theismann was an MVP, a Super Bowl champ and a two-time Pro Bowler, but that isn't enough by today's quarterback standards. Jacoby's resume holds up better.