Notre Dame football is in big trouble. I mean HUGE trouble. And the program has done it to itself.
The administration took a risk by firing Bob Davie, who was admittedly not setting the world afire. However, he was delivering in the classroom and had the squad playing well, if inconsistently. That wasn't enough, though, so the school stepped into the abyss.
And that first step was a doozy.
The hiring of George O'Leary didn't go well. On the bright side, it was probably the most entertaining five-day coaching stint in the history of college football. Let's move on.
ND threatened to pull out of the steepening nosedive by hiring the first African-American head football coach in the school's long and illustrious history. Tyrone Willingham was also young and on the rise, coming off a successful stint at Stanford. After a white-hot start, the bloom came off the rose in a HURRY.
It became obvious that, while TW possibly had the coaching acumen to guide a perceived national contender, he lacked the same necessary to recruit the requisite talent. Without that talent, the superpowers of the CFB landscape began to maul the Golden-Domers. After three years and a 21-15 record that included a number of lopsided and embarrassing losses, Willingham got the word.
Exit, stage left.
Enter the considerable girth and ego of Charlie Weis. The Great Weis Hype floated into town all bluster and boasts. Coaching this, strategy that. Professional offense this, never lose to that. Notre Dame had found the answer to Willingham—a great coaching mind who had the fame, work ethic, and credentials to recruit.
Apparently, they got it half-right. And apparently that half was worth a 10-year, multimillion-dollar contract extension.
Now, they're stuck in the spotlight with nowhere to go.
Look at Tyrone Willingham's record, warts and all. TW went 21-15 in three years. In 2002, ND went 10-3 and got killed in the Gator Bowl by NC State. Along the way, the Irish beat four Top-25 schools and got rolled by USC. In 2003, the program went 5-7 and suffered four humiliating defeats. In 2004, ND went 6-6 and lost to Oregon State in the Insight Bowl. That year saw the Irish beat a Top-10 Michigan squad for the second time in three years, but suffer another series of horrible face-plants.
Now look at Charlie Weis' record of 28-21 through four years.
In 2005, ND went 9-3 and got stomped out by Ohio State in the Fiesta Bowl. The Irish beat three Top-25 schools on the road without suffering any awful losses. In 2006, the program went 10-3 and got annihilated by LSU in the Sugar Bowl. ND beat a Top-25 Penn State squad, but got blitzed by both Michigan and USC in its other regular season challenges. Weis was extended along the way.
Last year (2007) probably doesn't need much recap—3-9, lost to Navy at home, six blowout losses, shutout by both USC and Michigan, and set school records for consecutive losses to open a season AND total losses. This year hasn't been much better. The Irish are 6-6 in 2008 and destined for a bowl game. But they haven't beaten anyone very good, got shut out by Boston College, lost to Pittsburgh and Syracuse in South Bend, and managed only a field goal against USC after going almost three quarters without a first down.
It's not over. I would bet that Notre Dame will accept an invitation to a bowl it has no business being in, against an opponent that is far superior, and you'll see another lopsided loss hung on the Golden Dome.
Now, compare the two coaches side-by-side. This is where the trouble starts.
For all of Charlie Weis' supposed recruiting and offensive genius, the results are almost identical. Both coaches averaged about a 7-5 record per year. TW's winning percentage is actually higher. Both went to two bowl games; Weis went to BCS games, but got embarrassed twice. Both had their greatest success with the previous coach's recruits. Both had their share of big wins and vomitous losses. Both have seen the program reach new depths.
And yet Weis got that huge, long extension, plus another vote of confidence today while Willingham's contract was bought out. Despite seemingly identical results. However, the real problem is this: What else was Notre Dame gonna do?
They couldn't get rid of the guy. Unless CW resigned, they would have eaten a huge financial hit in a failing economy. It would have also been an obvious admission that they made another colossal administrative blunder on the heels of Davie, O'Leary, and Willingham. And it would have chucked a beloved alumnus under the bus, labeling him a failure in his first solo gig.
Not to mention that keeping him can't backfire.
The Irish 2009 schedule is as follows: Nevada at home, Michigan on the road, Michigan State at home, Purdue on the road, Washington at home, USC at home, BC at home, Washington State in San Antonio, Navy at home, Pittsburgh on the road, Connecticut at home, and Stanford in Palo Alto. Weis could pretty much sleep through the year and Notre Dame's faith would still be vindicated.
So the Notre Dame powers-that-be finally made the correct call, right?
Wrong.
Look more closely at that schedule. It is weak. Weak. Notre Dame will have a bunch of matured upperclassmen who have had plenty of time in the system to learn it. And remember, these are all blue-chippers because that is, by definition, all Weis gets. Heading into 2009, everyone will ink down nine wins. The only question marks will be Michigan State at home, USC at home, and Boston College at home.
You see what I'm driving at?
The expectation of nine easy wins plus three challenges in South Bend will have a lot of people thinking 10 or 11 wins is realistic. Notre Dame has just delivered Weis' head to the media on a silver platter. Or rather golden.
He has no margin for error. If ND loses more than three games, dear GOD!
What should scare Weis is that Nevada, at Michigan, at Purdue, at Pittsburgh, and at Stanford will not be gimmes. Unfortunately for him, try selling that to a rabid fan base and media. So what happens if the Irish stagger under these expectations?
Look at that picture. The comparison of TW to CW will no longer be so similar. CW's resume will look inferior and the extension will look even worse. Not only that, the scene will include a vote of confidence that looked foolish at the time and looks infinitely more so in hindsight.
Even if the school goes 9-3 or better, it'll probably be back in a BCS game and getting slaughtered by a truly elite program.
Notre Dame has given itself no out by indulging its fanbase's lunacy, its delusion that the program can still be a national power. Never again will Notre Dame compete with the likes of USC. Yet it continues to operate and schedule as if those days are just the right tweak away. As long as the school adheres to its elevated academic standards, they are not.
College football is no longer a place where a squad of student-athletes can excel on an annual basis. There are simply too many programs treating their kids like professional athletes who must deal with hideous little annoyances like classwork and professors. How can you expect young kids to navigate considerable academic course loads while working hard enough to compete with kids who can focus almost exclusively on athletic improvement?
You can't.
No one seems to think so beside Notre Dame. Nobody is stunned when smaller schools that pride themselves on education can't compete with the bigguns. Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, the Ivies, Vanderbilt, etc. don't expect to hang with the elite every year. If everything comes together and they catch lightning in a bottle, great. But the goal is to stay competitive, maybe finish with a winning record, and go to a bowl game.
Notre Dame belongs in that club, is in that club, except its alumni and fans don't realize it or won't accept it. And that's the problem.
There is a disturbing trend developing in South Bend. Since Bob Davie, two coaches have come in and had their greatest successes with the previous guy's players. Davie reigned over ND football during the period of college football that saw academics take a back seat (of the bus) to competitive performance. He was the first to pay the price of that shift and the resolute expectations of fans and alumni.
TW came in and got off to a good start, but wore down. Ditto for Weis, though he's getting more of a chance to persevere. But if a coaching genius and star recruiter can't get the job down with all that leash, can any coach succeed?
I say no. And if no coach can deliver on what's expected of the program, the expectation must be the problem. Yet Notre Dame continues to indulge the fallacy.
So look out, folks. This should get a lot more fun.
55 comments Last one added 7 months ago — Leave a Comment
Jim Cowan 7 months ago
Well written and thought out and it's obvious you smile at continuing demise of Notre Dame football, okay. As much as I'd love to disagree and call you a typical hater, I cannot. I unfortunately don't have the fodder to fuel that argument right now. Except for one point.
"But if a coaching genius and star recruiter can't get the job down with all that leash, can any coach succeed? I say no. And if no coach can deliver on what's expected of the program, the expectation must be the problem. Yet Notre Dame continues to indulge the fallacy."
The problem I have is this, Weis is not the guru we all thought he was, at least at this level he's not and it has been painfully obvious. The question I have is, how are Notre Dame's top ten recruiting classes any different than Texas', Oklahoma's, or USC's? Where's the disconnect. The "stars" are given to the athletes long before Notre Dame comes knocking at the door right? So if the dud 5 star at Notre Dame chose USC instead would he cease to be a dud? My answer is YES 9 out of 10 times. Yes Notre Dame holds higher academic and moral standards than most schools out there and certainly more than the other so called "powerhouse" football programs. But are you going to tell me that a nerd 5 star is different than a thug 5 star...bollocks! It's coaching brotha! The stars mean nothing once spring practice starts only for the fact that hopefully this kid has maybe a little more natural talent than the next. It's what the coaching staff does with these kids that makes the difference. And that is where Notre Dame has failed most.
Don't tell me that the likes of Stoops or Meyer and their coaching trees can only coach their 5 stars to National Championships because they have looser standards to adhere to. Long story short, I believe Notre Dame can still be an elite program, but it takes action, not cliches and living in the past as we've done for the past 15 years.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Jim,
My reply would be that, 2 well-respected coaches have come in, started well, and then caved. It's certainly possible that ND just misjudged both guys, but they were so different that I find it unlikely. The problem is, until the ideology changes, it's always gonna be possible to blame the coach and cling to expectations.
Maybe if Meyer or Stoops came in a failed, that would convince you guys. But I doubt that will ever happen so you just have to look at other schools ND's size and academic rank. ND is the only such school bashing its head against the wall trying to compete with Florida, Ohio State, Oklahoma, etc.
I would also say that, although the 5 stars may be the same before they come to school, ND's have to split time between sports and school while the others focus completely on sports. That could account for the difference even if both places have good coaches. Or maybe the talent differential within the 5 stars is bigger than we think.
I agree that it's what the staff does with the kids, but other coaching staffs just have more time and energy with which to get results. My two cents and I've been wrong before ;-)
Thanks for the constructive disagreement and best of luck.
Andrew
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Mike Muratore 7 months ago
I'm standing and clapping...
It's sad that becaue Notre Dame still holds it's players to academic standards, and all the other schools don't, Notre Dame suffers. I HATE that line of reasoning.
Even though I wrote basically a complete counterpoint article... highlighting the upside of the program and why we should be hopeful, I can smell the coaching staff from my home in Maryland because they stink.
Suck out loud may be a better phrase... hell I think I coulda won 9 with this team this year. And a kicker.
Weis, and the Irish should win 9 of 12 in 2009. That is not unrealistic, seeing as they played well enough to win 9 of 12 in 2008. If Weis would have not coached his way into three bone-headed losses... which he has to LEARN NOT TO DO... we'd be trumpeting him for turing a 3-9 record to 9-3 in one year. The schedule is soft... but you play the games you have before you. So next year, he had better go 9-3.
Or we get a new coach in 2010.
The reason to hope is that the TALENT is there. You can't say that was the case a few years ago. Willingham was an excellent x's and o's guy, but after his first recruiting class (Quinn's) he basically phoned it in. He didn't fill his last two scholarship classes. DIDN'T FILL THEM! At NOTRE DAME!
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Wait, do you hate that line of reasoning b/c you disagree with it or b/c it's so unfair for a school to suffer for educating their students?
I think it's the latter, but, if not, I'd like to hear why you disagree.
Thanks for the feedback either way. If you disagreed, you did so without bitterness or insults. If you agree, well, obviously you are a scholar and a gentleman ;-)
Andrew
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Zeptogator 7 months ago
Best article title this year! The title says it all!
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Thanks man, appreciate the compliment.
Andrew
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Lisa Horne 7 months ago
Why aren't you writing professionally? This was amazing, tone was fantastic, had some snark, and wow, I could go on and on. Best article I HAVE EVER read here, bar none. I loved the style of it. It held my interest all the way through. Beautiful, just effing beautiful.
POTD 5*
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Whoa, thanks for the high praise Lisa. Coming from an accomplished and fantastic writer herself, it means all the more.
As for writing professionally, I'd love to. If only I could get the attention of someone at an outlet that would employ me...
Thanks again and keep up the good work yourself. Hope you get more feature columns like the one on the guys who should have replaced Weis (Skip Holtz would have been fascinating).
Andrew
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Iceman 7 months ago
Very good artice, lisa is right, you have got skills. In 5 or so years, nd will take its place among the academic schools, even if the fans don't want to hear it.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Thanks Iceman.
You can be my wingman anytime.
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Kent Moore 7 months ago
Andrew,
I'm glad you and I agree on the fact that a 9 win season next year is not a given.
Nevada will not be a push over. They are a young team that finished 7-5. One would hope that they can only get better.
Michigan will not be the 3-9 team we see before us now. They will be a school to reckon with again next year.
I'll give Notre Dame the win at Purdue. It is rebuilding time in West L.
Pittsburgh will be a force in the Big East next year with a veteran QB and McCoy in the backfield
Stanford has given the Irish some close games the last two years and I would expect the same next year out in Cali.
I predicted the Irish going 5-7 this year and I was off by one game.
I'm predicting the Irish to go 7-5 next year. I believe that is more realistic than 9-3.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Kent,
In all honesty, it was Jon Hunn's article about Weis and the mob plus your comment on it that gave me the idea for this article. Jon is a very rational ND fan who I respect and so a 9 win expectation seemed reasonable. Then you pointed out (as you do above) the problem with that assumption and I realized Weis would be in trouble if he came back because, if Jon thought 9 was reasonable, the crazy ND fans will probably convince themselves 10 or even 11 should be the mark.
A new coach might not face such lofty expectations. Weis surely will, despite what you point out. All I gotta say is, hope he's got his shamrocks ready.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
BTW, sorry about the sarcasm and "homer" comment on my BCS article.
As I reread the comment, there wasn't anything insulting or unfair in it, but I was riled up by the guy above you who accused me of not thinking about my criticism or my argument, etc. I disagree that OSU doesn't ride an easy schedule on purpose, but that's opinion and you're entitled to yours.
Mea culpa.
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Kent Moore 7 months ago
No worries man.
Great article.
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Michael Collins 7 months ago
Loved the article, Andrew. It's going to make me a lot of money next year.
This takes its place among the wishful thinking articles written after Willingham was fired. You know, "Notre Dame is irrelevant, can't recruit any big time recruits anymore, standards are too tough for admission for top high school recruits, big time recruits don't really want a degree, bend with the times."
It also reminds me of a friend who played ball at FSU and insists that football players should not have to go to college. All those difficult on-line music classes. You, too, sound like you're saying today's top schools belong in a Guns and Losers Conference where noboby cares about academics.
Say it ain't so, Andrew.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Nah man, I'm just saying you can't have it both ways.
A huge school can bend standards for some athletes while maintaining a strong academic reputation (a la Cal, Michigan, UNC, Texas, etc.). If you're a smaller school, you either place a premium on academics and max out at competitive on an annual basis with a couple really good and really bad seasons mixed in. Or you throw academics out the window, watch your team improve, and your academic rep suffer.
It's just unrealistic (in my opinion) to expect anything less. I mean, c'mon. How many 18-21 year-old kids are gonna kill themselves for 6 hours on a football field and then go back to hit the books hard? Some, but not the majority.
As for me, I think all these kids should have to go to class and less emphasis should be placed on football until they make it to the pros. That is, after all, the stated mission of the NCAA. But that's certainly not what's happening.
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Michael Collins 7 months ago
So, in keeping to the NCAA's purpose "to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount", a small school like Notre Dame is doomed to fail on the football field?
Or your argument also seems to be that the larger state schools can pay homage to the NCAA's purpose but are more realistically letting some players slide by to maintain their football success.
The highly-regarded student-athletes that are committing to Weis and his coaches have dual expectations - to excel in both the classroom and on the football field. The ND fanbase does not expect anything more than what the players expect of themselves.
Only 1% of NCAA seniors are drafted into the NFL. To neglect an education paid for by your scholarship is stupid, even after hours of practice.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
That's exactly what I'm saying - that the NCAA mission statement is total bullsh*t, that small schools focused on education are destined to fail against the elite programs, that larger schools can pretend to educate their athletes and hide amongst the numerous student bodies, and that neglecting an education is stupid, for any reason.
Elite athletes always set unreasonable expectations. That is the only way you become elite since becoming elite is, itself, an unreasonable expectation (in the sense that the odds are heavily against you). Being unreasonable serves their purpose best.
Fans should be more reasonable b/c that serves our purpose best.
I don't get it. Do you disagree or are you just paraphrasing my argument? If you disagree, on what grounds? What highly successful, small academic institution has been able to hang with the big boys of college football? Recently. On an annual basis.
Because, as far as I can tell, those are the expectations of ND fans.
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Michael Collins 7 months ago
Let me help, if I can, Andrew.
We agree that Notre Dame pursuing excellence that few other schools are.
You speak of "unrealistic expectations" and I would talk of goals to strive for. You don't get anywhere without setting goals.
You see Notre Dame, Stanford, Duke, NW, Vanderbilt as not consistently successful recently and project no future success. I see that Weis moved into a program that needed rebuilding from the bottom up like Oklahoma's, USC's, LSU's were and what Shannon is doing with Miami now.
You think the recent past is prelude to the future. That seems a jump in logic - or just a belief. I see a sophomore QB who still occasionally made sophomore mistakes that cost ball games.
If talent can be developed better by someone other than Weis, ND will commit to do that. With this past year ('08), ND has now moved to completing the rebuilding and now needs to demonstrate their talent and experience. On an annual basis.
Of course, all this is done in a national spotlight that no other school gets shone on them.
You saw ND beaten by USC 38-3 and I also remember Ohio State beaten 35-3 by them. The Irish held the Trojans to 100 yards less than the Buckeyes defense did - even though the Trojans had the ball 7 more minutes against the Irish than they did against the Buckeyes.
I wouldn't change our standards or goals.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Fair enough.
As long as we agree that the definition of "success" in this context is standing toe-to-toe with the strongest national programs on an annual basis. I'll readily admit that any school could stumble onto a guy or two who could carry a team to national prominence for 2 or 3 years.
I just think expectations are different than goals. Failing to meet a reasonable expectation is grounds for disappointment and questioning competence. Failing to meet a goal, not necessarily so even if the goal was reasonable. I wouldn't change ND's standards or goals either; I'd change its expectations.
Furthermore, I think you're still talking about goals/expectations that players/coaches should put on themselves. I don't think those are the same as what the admin/fanbase should generate.
But hey man, by all means, keep the faith if that makes you happy. I just think a lot of ND fans aren't happy and never will be based on current expectations. I mean, if you really believe that ND will one day reach the level of OSU, OU, USC, etc., more power to you. I obviously can't say you're definitely wrong.
I'd just be careful who you blame if it never happens.
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Michael Collins 7 months ago
That blame game has never stopped those who are not fans but feel they know what is best for the Irish. Lack of effort and preparation are the only reasons to bring a coach to task. Coaching skills and adaptability show over time.
I'll not blame anyone if success does happen either. We all speak our minds, sometimes with snark.
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Brian 7 months ago
Enjoyed your article. I can buy into your argument that ND's academic standards will continue to lead to losses to the BSC elite (USC, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, etc), but what is your explanation for losing to teams that you supposedly annually out-recruit? Why is Notre Dame now regularly losing to teams like Michigan State and Boston College? Coaching?
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
I honestly think it's just that the athletes at those schools spend far more time thinking about, concentrating on, working on, and practicing football. It could be coaching, but I've seen TW up close when I was at Stanford and had friends on the team. He's not Bill Walsh, but he wasn't bad. I don't like CW, but I don't imagine he's an awful coach either.
I just think that the reality of ND football on an annual basis is more 7-5 than 10-2. It includes some 10-2 years, but it includes some 3-9 years as well b/c it will have down years and still wear a target on its back.
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Jonathan Kitchens 7 months ago
Good well written article. My point in your comparison of Weis and Ty is in recruiting. No matter what Weis does (or doesnt) accomplish he will have still out recruited Ty by a country mile. With that talent anyone should win, but they wont. I was in favor of keeping Weis another year simply for a sense on continuity. If ND continues to make knee jerk reactions and hire and fire with an itchy trigger finger, then no coach will feel safe, not Meyer, not Skip, no one.
One problem I see is the scheme. Notre Dame still runs the Lou Holtz style hit-them-in-the-mouth-and-push-them-around and it doesnt work in college football anymore, especially at ND. They don't have the size strength or skill in the trenches to accomplish what Holtz did. Times have changed and Notre Dame has not. Even after he left Holtz changed to the spread. With Notre Dame's WR core they could excel (maybe) at the spread. But they remain steeped in tradition. Wake up those echoes and all. Notre Dame may well win 9-10 games next season but fans wont be happy until ND looks like USC every year. Denial runs rampant in South Bend that those days are over.
Good Job.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Thanks for the feedback Jonathan.
Continuity is usually a good thing, I agree. I just think that, in this case, ND needs to break the cycle of unrealistic expectation and a 10 win year from Weis next year would only reinforce it. Of course, I could be wrong and a 10 win year could be the first of many.
Wouldn't be the first time I got something wrong ;-)
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Grant Hanrahan 7 months ago
I'm going to start off first by saying, this is a very well written article. It held my attention the entire time and had great flow and tone to it.
I am a life-long Notre Dame fan. It's tough to always read articles bashing my favorite team. I do like that you did not use the race card anywhere in your article. I am so tired of reading hate-filled comments and articles about Notre Dame, calling them racists.
Bob Davie was a solid defensive coordinator for the Irish and someone they felt could step in and take over for Holtz. The O'Leary incident obviously was bad for the Irish and they had to save face and tried to do so by hiring Willingham. Personally, I don't feel they did enough research on the guy.
In 7 seasons at Stanford, he had a record of 44-36-1. He had 3 losing seasons and if it werent for his 2001 season, he would have been 35-33-1. The mistake in the thinking of Notre Dame AND the media was that Tyrone Willingham's 2001 "success" came thanks to a fairly down PAC-10.
Oregon 11-1
Washington State 10-2
Stanford 9-3
Washington 8-4
UCLA 7-5
USC 6-6
Arizona 5-6
Oregon State 5-6
Arizona State 4-7
California 1-10
Willingham rode into Notre Dame thanks to a good year at Stanford and Notre Dame trying to repair its reputation.
Notre Dame firing Willingham had nothing to do with race, or even wins and losses. Simply put, Notre Dame fired Willingham to get Urban Meyer. Too many writers and Notre Dame haters think, or believe, the Irish went after Weis. They wanted Urban Meyer. He coached at Notre Dame from 1996-2000 and has publically stated numerous times his dream job is Notre Dame. He has also stated that at the time of the Notre Dame opening, that he felt his family was young and he did not want to be away so much, recruiting nationally for Notre Dame.
So the Irish, once again trying to save face, went out and got Charlie Weis. His failures, coupled with those of Romeo Crennel of the Cleveland Browns, only cements my belief that Bill Belichick is a coaching genius and was the true brains of the Patriots operation.
Weis will fail next year, because he is doomed to fail. What he has done (or hasn't done to be more accurate) will linger in the minds of many. For most Notre Dame fans, anything less than 9 to 11 wins next year will be a failure. I personally believe that Weis will fall short again next year, will be fired, and Urban Meyer will leave Florida for Notre Dame.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Grant,
That's a fascinating point about Urban Meyer. I hadn't heard that before, or maybe I had and all the racial/recruiting/Weis-hype/etc. made me forget it.
I hope you don't think I'm bashing ND (not that I haven't done so in the past). I actually think the school is doing an admirable thing w/re to academics and getting the raw end of the deal for it. In this case ;-)
Anyway, I appreciate the post and new slant on the topic.
Andrew
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Ryan Jelley 7 months ago
Great writing. Notre Dame isn't the only program that is sufferin because the fact their academics are really difficult. Michigan also has just as high standards and could be the cause of their downfall too. I really hope both put it back together because watching the game this year was just dismal.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Oh lord, don't get me started on UM.
They rank a close second to the Cardinal in my college heart as all the men from my mom's family went there. I root for the Wolverines on the national scale and the Cardinal in our little neck of the woods.
I'm more optimistic about UM though b/c they have a bit more wiggle room due to the massive size of the school. We'll see though.
Thanks for the compliment.
Andrew
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Joe G 7 months ago
A great article.
I disagree slightly with your assertions that the academic integrity element is hurting the ND program so much, though. Great players, like the ones that Notre Dame has allegedly recruited the past few years under Weis, should be able to step up on the football field regardless. They go to college at Notre Dame knowing full well that they are expected to work in the field and in the classroom. It's not like ND's reputation for having good academics is a well-hidden secret. Plus, these guys have all the help they want in the classroom. Tutors are readily available to student athletes.
I'd go as far as saying that I'm not terribly impressed with Notre Dame's academic achievements anyway. A team GPA of 3.0 doesn't wow me. That means you'll have a few people above 3.0, but also a few people below 3.0. In many education programs, grades in the 2.5-3.0 range are barely cutting it. You can't even be considered for entrance into Michigan State's college of education with a GPA less than 2.75. So I think it's safe to say that at least a few ND players would have trouble cutting it at a school that is unfairly perceived as a "lesser" academic institution.
The real issue with ND's program is a lot simpler than academics, or having to join a conference. Charlie Weis just isn't a good coach, plain and simple. The last time I saw a coach do this little with that much talent was...John L. Smith. I think it's universally agreed that John L. is a pretty terrible coach. I'd like to see football fans recognize some of the same traits in Weis.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Joe,
Very interesting take. I don't know enough about the GPA/grad rate stats to really agree/disagree, but it sounds like you have a valid point. As far as the coaching ability v. academic responsibility, you may very well be right.
I just think it's odd that two highly respected coaches with 2 different styles have failed (thus far) very similarly.
But, like I said, you could be right and I could be wrong. Thanks for the constructive disagreement. It's always appreciated.
Andrew
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Joe G 7 months ago
Andrew,
The "two highly respected coaches" bit is changing year by year. Judging by what we've seen at Washington, Willingham probably was never going to be the guy to return ND to glory. My theory on him is that he's a good enough coach to bring a program up to a decent level, one where they will be competing for bowl berths every year. You need a different coach if you hope to build your program up to the elite level.
I'd bet that it's something similar with Charlie. He can bring in the recruits that Willingham couldn't, but he's not great with X's and O's. If Notre Dame wants to make the jump back to the elite ranks, they need somebody who can coach these players to their full potential, as well as continue to bring in top talent. If it were only that simple, right? Coaches like that are few and far between, which is why it's so tough to win a national title.
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Dwight Palmer 7 months ago
Willingham never had a chance. His recruiting was very good, contrary to your opinion. The reason you give coaches 5 years is to allow them to use their first year recruits when they are seniors. Willingham's recruits played for Weis and gave him his best record the first two years. Brady Quinn was one of those.
Notre Dame has proven that they can allow racist into their organization. That is the only reason that Weiss is allowed to continue with a worse winning percentage and Willingham. Also Willingham has been the only ND coach in recent memory that has not been allowed 5 years.
Maybe Notre Dame administrators should pull their sheets off their heads so they can make decisions correctly.
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Grant Hanrahan 7 months ago
Always with the race card. It's funny that people TRULY believe that a school as well known and followed as Notre Dame would discriminate. I laugh at simple-minded people who blame everything on race. I will paste my comment from earlier, so you can see a true take on the Willingham situation.
Notre Dame firing Willingham had nothing to do with race, or even wins and losses. Simply put, Notre Dame fired Willingham to get Urban Meyer. Too many writers and Notre Dame haters think, or believe, the Irish went after Weis. They wanted Urban Meyer. He coached at Notre Dame from 1996-2000 and has publically stated numerous times his dream job is Notre Dame. He has also stated that at the time of the Notre Dame opening, that he felt his family was young and he did not want to be away so much, recruiting nationally for Notre Dame.
Meyer was coming off a 12-0 season at Utah and was in high demand. Notre Dame went after him and put all of their eggs in one basket. That included firing Willingham.
As for Willingham's recruiting being "very good," I must laugh. First, Brady Quinn literally FELL into Willingham's lap. He wasn't even recruiting Quinn. He was going after Chinedum Ndukwe, Quinn's high school teammate and wide receiver. Ndukwe's father told Willingham he needed to look at Quinn, who wasn't even on Willingham's radar. As for Quinn's stats, in 2 years under Willingham, he threw 26 TDs and 25 picks. In 2 years under Weis, he threw for 69 TDs and 14 picks. Jeff Samardzija, Quinn's college teammate, also flourished under Weis. While barely sniffing the field under Willingham and racking up a whopping 327 yards and 0 TDs, he blew up with Quinn under Weis, to the tune of 2,266 yards and 27 TDs in 2 seasons. Lastly, if Willingham was such a great recruiter, why did he leave the defensive cupboard dry? That was the downfall of Weis' first two years, when he had great offense and little D.
I'll leave you with this: If Notre Dame is a racist school, like you claim, what does that make Washington? Willingham currently has an overall record of 11-36 at Washington, including currently being 0-11 this season. They will be 0-12 after California is done with them on Saturday. When he walks away from Seattle after this season, he will have left them worse off than he left Notre Dame. But hey, he's a very good recruiter and coach, right?
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Hey, almost 40 comments before someone brought race into it. That's not too bad!
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Mike Eagan 7 months ago
Crap... I just accidentally deleted our entire exchange, Andrew, when I meant to just edit my last comment. Sorry bout that. The [edit]/[delete] links are quite misleading on here. Anyway, here's what I had written in my final comment:
I'm a 2L -- and a cranky one at that ;-)
Glad we were able to reach a little common ground. I guess I'm a bit more optimistic that ND can pull off the mission it's seeking to achieve. Don't get me wrong -- it won't be easy, because there are no quick fixes. It will take years of sustained effort in recruiting and development for the program's momentum to build on itself and reach that elite level. That's why I wish the current unruly majority of ND fans would realize this and show a little more patience.
Anyway, no hard feelings, and I look forward to reading more of your work -- and tearing you a new one. (kidding!)
-Mike
(Oh, and just as I finish typing this and start to feel a little better about myself, I see Dwight's comment below. I think you can feel my pain...)
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
No sweat man, I shouldn't have jumped so hard on tone over cyberspace anyway; can get misinterpreted too easily.
That's messed up that you can add/delete comments but I can't and it's my article.
Does that mean someone could just come marauding through and delete all the comments?
B/c they get removed from the total at the top and I believe that's what generates priority for front page placement. Interesting little wrinkle.
Anyway, I could be wrong about ND and the entire academia/athletics approach. I just don't think I am and that's unfortunate. As for future articles, bring the ruckus ;-)
2L huh? I bet I know some of your classmates or at least some guys there with you.
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Mike Eagan 7 months ago
Actually, I'm an Admin so I have special powers -- like the Force, they can be used for good or evil. I was trying to correct a typo in my latest comment, but deleted the whole convo instead. My bad.
As far as I know, non-admins aren't able to edit or delete comments, so I don't think stat sabotage should be a problem.
However, I'll look into whether deleted comments can be restored somehow. Your stats shouldn't suffer for my bonehead move.
-Mike
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Ahhh, I see.
No sweat man. Couple comments here and there shouldn't make/break my pro writing career.
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Reggie Garcia 7 months ago
I'll pass hate along with Notre Dame like the next guy
but anyone who has tried to apply to Notre Dame knows
It does have really high academic standards
But it isn't a problem with the Blue Chips rolling in though
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Dwight Palmer 7 months ago
Andrew, your writing was fine. Very good actually. I am always amazed at how naive people can be when it comes down to the real world. It may not have been racism at ND that got Willingham, but I think it was.
You are obviously a guy that has never been pulled over 4 nights in a row for being the wrong color in what the cops consider the wrong neighborhood. I have, just recently. I have had job applications tossed (found out by accident) though the education, experience and references were world class, literally. I had applied out of curiosity so it was not traumatic, but was very surprising for a national chain.
I gave ND the benefit of the doubt when TW was fired. Now I am leaning toward bias of some sort, heck, I down right tilted. Unfortunately, I see this sort of thing quite frequently in my life. If you do not, then you are either blessed, blind or not a minority.
Your writing is good, I look forward to more. Just try not to discount someone else's experience and perception, it may be the correct one.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Dwight,
Why do you think I discount your experience or perception?
Race has absolutely nothing to do with the above. The article was about how the (in my opinion) crazy expectations of fans/admin are driving ND into deeper trouble. It wasn't about why TW was fired/CW was hired. That is why I flippantly commented.
I'm the first to acknowledge that institutional racism is alive (though not well) in America, but nobody can prove/disprove that race was a factor in the handling of TW/CW so I didn't interject it. As for you assertions, I don't see why race is more likely than the fact that CW is/was an alum with an impressive NFL resume in demand by other employers. To me, both seem possible to me (as does Grant's argument re Meyer).
With so many plausible biases, I see no proof one way or the other.
So race is just irrelevant to the article. I don't see any reason to imply I'm naive or blind.
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Jon Hunn 7 months ago
This article was decently written, albeit long-winded.
You make some interesting points, however. The premise that Notre Dame won't be able to compete because they have too high of academic standards is not a foreign idea. Also, it's one that is completely untrue. Notre Dame, with the help of Charlie Weis and recruiting coordinator Rob Ianello has done a very good job of getting kids who are "blue-chip" recruits as well as kids who want to excel in the classroom.
And next season is just the type of schedule that Notre Dame needs to have in order to allow their young team to finally mature under the coaching of Charlie Weis and gain their confidence back. Also, it's the type of season that Weis needs to have in order to gain control of his program. It's a very easy schedule, but one that will go a long way in helping the Irish
But, let me reiterate that this was a decently written article. Well done.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
I'd love to believe an elite program can do both b/c that would mean the NCAA isn't totally full of sh*t. I just don't think it's possible.
We shall see though. Thanks for the feedback.
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Mike Muratore 7 months ago
Andrew,
This is a response to a response that goes way back a bit...
The "academic" line of reasoning that I hate is because the NCAA acts like they want every school to hold their "student" athletes to these standards, and because Notre Dame does, they "can't compete". I don't disagree with it... how could you? It's obvious. Paul Horning said as much a few years ago and was promptly beaten down and removed from the Irish broadcast booth.
I agree totally that Notre Dame can't have it both ways. They can't require kids to achieve in the classroom when Ohio State, Florida, or Oklahoma's kids may never SEE a classroom. I think the NCAA should step back in and either make "student athlete" meaningful again, or give the kids a paycheck and end all the pretense.
I do agree with you. It just depresses me.
Notre Dame always has some rules that make it hard for them... no Juco's, no transfers, no "academic exceptions". I don't see the problem in giving a kid who can play a chance to get a first rate education even though he may be from a bad situation and from a rough past... isn't that charitable?
I don't have a problem with making the players go to school and maintain academic standards... ALL schools should. I just wish Notre Dame let more kids in the door.
But... where my opinion differs a little, is that they are getting some high quality talent again... "stealing" some recruits that USC was high on. Granted USC has 3 of the same guy interested at just about every position, but the talent level and SPEED level at Notre Dame has improved a TON over the last couple years. Davie's players were slow. It was the "old" player model... big strong and powerful. The SEC over the last decade has broken that model... it's now about speed. Speed trumps size. SIZE AND SPEED make you great. Willingham was lost recruiting at Notre Dame... not sure why, but he really did empty the program. If there is one thing Weis is doing well, it's bringing in talent.
He may just have absolutely no idea what to do with them once they are there.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Mike Muratore,
That sounds like an Italian hitman. Ominous.
Thanks for the clarification, that's what I thought but I've misinterpreted tone before. I had no idea about those rules at ND, impressive from one angle and yet I tend to agree with you - give 'em a shot. As for the recruits, I don't disagree that they still get top-flight talent. I just think it's harder to develop it as much at ND where academics "distract" the athletes.
We shall see though. Got no truck with reasonable disagreement, especially when it's about something that nobody can know for sure. Interested in a contract? I've got a couple assets I need removed cleanly ;-)
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Jim Cowan 7 months ago
Well put Mike; kind of the argument I was trying to make above, but with more emphasis on CW's failures developing those athletes at the college level. And I do actually agree with some of what Andrew is saying, but I think it could be a combo of both poor coaching and "school stresses" where the big name schools have better superior coaching and little outside stress other than what they're expected to do on the field.
Who am I to say, maybe Andy's right, and Notre Dame needs to give up everything in the past and live with their destiny of being a nerd school that has some sports team too. But here's the thing about the haters. What do you care? Who cares if Notre Dame thinks they can be better than they ever will be? What do you care if they keep playing USC, Michigan, MSU, Purdue every year? We read more bitching and complaining about Notre Dame but in the big scheme of things what does it really matter to anyone if they're losing? I don't understand it.
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Jon Hunn 7 months ago
Jim, I've asked myself that question a bunch of times and I've only come up with one conclusion:
People are upset that Notre Dame plays these people year in and year out because they are jealous that Notre Dame not only gets to choose their schedule for the most part, but they also do so and get a ton of exposure.
They are upset that Notre Dame is a sub-par program right now and they still get an NBC contract. Or, they're upset that Notre Dame is a sub-par program and they get spots on ESPN when something happens there, etc.
They don't like that their school chose to be in a conference, which limits their schedule every year (even though most of their teams schedule I-AA teams for their out-of-conference schedule. They don't like that their school has to be in a conference and Notre Dame doesn't have to because they can draw ratings, crowds, and money 99.9% of the time they play, nationwide. They do this all while being a sub-par program.
Seriously, though, would they rather have Notre Dame beating up on people? Having Notre Dame be a mediocre team is best for all who aren't ND fans. If ND is horrible, they get more coverage from networks like ESPN. If ND is amazing, they get more coverage. It's only when ND is mediocre when networks like ESPN leave them alone for the most part, except to take their occasional digs at Charlie Weis or Jimmy Clausen.
That's what people are upset about and it's quite ridiculous.
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Mike Muratore 7 months ago
Watch it wise guy!
Luckily... or unluckily... I'm not from New York, Chicago, or Youngstown (somehow that third one never seemed to fit...) and grew up outside the mob! Italian families have certain... traditions... that I can see leading into the mafia /cosa nostra life... blood is definately thicker than water! But a trigger man I am not. I kinda went the other way on that one...
I'm also half Irish... so when I'm feeling hostile I get myself good and drunk and kick the shit out of myself!
Seems to work...
Yea... Notre Dame likes to make it more of a challenge... I think they feel that the asthetics of the place will make up for it? "sure the classes will be hard... but look how PRETTY it is!"
Works for lacrose!
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Lol, I too am part Irish and have that nasty habit of inflicting damage upon myself. Even ended up in the clink a time or two in my late teens/very early 20s (for harmless stuff, nothing on my record or anything like that). Seem to have finally outgrown it though ;-)
Funny about the campus, I think Stanford probably tries that too. You either think the campus is gorgeous or looks like a really suped-up Taco Bell. I go with the former although I see where the latter is coming from. I love the Farm too much though to succumb.
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Dwight Palmer 7 months ago
Andrew, I read your response and cannot argue with your logic. We will never know what motivated the firing of TW.
I believe we can both agree that it is not enough to avoid immorality, but to avoid the look of immorality. Notre Dame did not do the latter and left themselves open to interpretation with inconsistent responses to marginal performance.
Just for review; two guys at the same job and the guy with the better record of the two gets terminated. The accepted wisdom is that a coach should get at least 4 years (ND 5) for fair evaluation.
The terminated buy gets 3.
The other guy gets a contract extension with a worse record and gets the opportunity to work 5 years.
If you heard this story from the local factory and found that one was black and the other was white, what would any reasonable personal assume with the history of our nation as a guide?
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
you'd assume it was racially based, but the devil is in the details that you omitted.
i disagree with regard to morality b/c that means you'd have to define your actions by the interpretations of others. all you can do is avoid an act you believe to be immoral. for instance, i have no problem with premarital sex, but i would not be avoiding the look of immorality according to religious fundamentalists.
why do i have to conform to their beliefs, i don't expect them to conform to mine.
like i said, race is plausible but so are the other two.
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Grant Hanrahan 7 months ago
Dwight,
"The other guy gets a contract extension with a worse record and gets the opportunity to work 5 years."
Only half of this statement is true. Weis did not get the extension with a worse record. He got the extension during is first year, when Notre Dame was afraid he would leave for the NFL.
Also, Weis is working under different leadership now than he was when he was hired and given the extension. The Athletic Director now, Jack Swarbrick, was hired this past Summer after the previous AD, Kevin White, bolted for Duke. The new AD is attempting to bring stability to the program, instead of keeping the habit of firing coaches on a whim.
Furthermore, Willingham's failure at UW only cements that Notre Dame made the right move, even if it was after only 3 seasons.
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Dwight Palmer 7 months ago
All of the responses are reasonable, it was the former Athletic Director that pulled the plug on TW. As for TW failing at Washington, it doesn't mean anything. I've seen coaches fail at one program and succeed wildly at another.
Premarital sex, is immoral. I guess, we American's don't have the same moral values across the board anymore. But people in the public eye and positions of authority and prestige should avoid even the appearance of immorality.
Our Nation's values have always come from the Bible. We seem to be trying to get away from that, but have nothing to replace it. The every man for himself morality will fracture us as a nation and lead to misunderstandings about what is right vs. what is wrong.
Notre Dame did what was legal with TW, but it was ethically questionable.
You guys enjoy your ND discussions, I'm pretty much done. I don't like the school anyway. I'm a Grambling fan.
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Andrew Nuschler 7 months ago
Sigh.
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