I was going to move rationally around the diamond in my "greatest ten of all time" series, but I got frustrated with first base, and then with third, so I'll get to those later. For now, I have decided to focus on second.
Just off the top of my head, I will be considering, in no particular order, the following second basemen—accompanied by their career WARP (Wins Above Replacement Player):
Rod Carew (117), Eddie Collins (220), Bobby Doerr (113), Johnny Evers (113), Nellie Fox (95), Bobby Grich (113), Lou Whitaker (112), Bobby Lowe (91), Charlie Gehringer (155), Rogers Hornsby (201), Nap Lajoie (223), Bill Mazeroski(93), Joe Morgan (174), Jackie Robinson (89), Ryne Sandberg (118), Roberto Alomar (111), Craig Biggio (113), and Joe Gordon (84).
Several names immediately jump out as being far and away superior to the rest of the pack. The big pre-war three—Collins, Hornsby, and Lajoie—are all certainly in, as are Joe Morgan, Charlie Gehringer, and Jackie Robinson.
The justification for Robinson (who does in fact have the second lowest WARP of the group) is a no-brainer. Often lost in the shuffle of Jackie's more publicized role in baseball history is this—he was a truly sensational baseball player. Had he been white, Jackie Robinson absolutely, without question, would still have had a Hall of Fame career.
Normally, I don't like to give players credit for things they did not actually do. This is why I do not like to hear: "Tony Oliva would be in the Hall if it weren't for his bad knees, Mattingly would have been the best 1st baseman of the 1980's if it weren't for his bad back..."
This is crap. Oliva did have bad knees, and Mattingly did have a bad back. I imagine there are dozens upon dozens of players who would be in the HOF if it were not for some injury or mishap.
There are two exceptions to this rule that I find reasonable, racism and war. In the case of war, we can use Ted Williams as our example. Williams was the game's best hitter immediately before going to war, and the game's best hitter immediately following his return. It only stands to reason that he was also the game's best hitter in the intervening years, even if he wasn't on the field.
As for race: Jackie Robinson was 28 when he made his major league debut. The average major league quality player reaches their peak somewhere between the ages of 25-29. It is therefore, reasonable to assume that Jackie lost what would have been, at a minimum, two or three peak seasons, as well as several of a near-peak level.
When we imagine Jackie putting up these numbers, it is important to remember that he was, in fact, playing in a high quality league at this time. He put up numbers—just not numbers that we can see.
What follows is a rough imagining of what sort of career line Jackie might have put up, had he reached the majors at 22, when most of our HOF second basemen were already playing regularly.
H-2530, D-485, T-90, HR-244, R-1578, RBI-1223, SB-328, BB-1233 .311/.409/.474/.885
22 comments Last one added about 1 year ago — Leave a Comment
Anthony Rescan about 1 year ago
It's funny because everyone else either has Morgan or Sandberg at 1.
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
Morgan may have been 1 of all time, but his numbers cannot really compare to Collins. who has sanberg number 1? I can't imagine any sort of reality where he could be ranked above Morgan.
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Zander Freund about 1 year ago
Eddie Collins is unquestionably the best—he's offensively brilliant, quick on the basepaths, and was regarded by his contemporaries as the most sound at his position defensively without question.
The Morgan/Hornsby question is a little tougher I think. Hornsby has the dominant offensive numbers (even when compensating for the era of play), but Morgan takes the cake on defense and base running. I think of second base where the latter qualities are incredibly important and thus I might be inclined to go with Morgan. It's a hard call though.
Sandberg was great, but he's definitely not in Morgan's league. They have similar numbers on the surface, but Morgan drew far more walks and played for a significantly longer period of time. Defensively speaking, I think Morgan is generally regarded as the better of the two (though opinions on Sandberg's defense seem to vary significantly from person to person).
I like that you put Nap Lajoie and Charlie Gehringer at the four and five spots. These are two old timers who deserve major, major props for the outstanding numbers they put up throughout their careers—not to mention that both were considered to be phenomenal defensively.
My biggest disagreement with the list is Robby Alomar at #11. It's a competitive race, but Alomar deserves to get into the top 10.
He is one of the BEST defensive infielders I have ever watched in my entire life (surely better than Biggio or Sandberg). Combine that with .300 career batting average (compared with .268 league), 474 stolen bases, and 210 dingers and you've got a pretty damn complete second baseman.
Oh, and one notable omission from the list entirely: Frankie Frisch. He might be #12 though when all is said and done...
Overall, another fantastic analysis Ben. Keep the great stuff coming.
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
I completely forgot about Frisch. He was pretty incredible, 157 (WARP) career. I think he definitely has to rank somewhere in the top ten...not really sure where, maybe as high as # 7.
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Anthony Rescan about 1 year ago
Sandberg put up a lot of stats near Morgan's with about 500 less games under his belt. If they would have played the same amount of games I'm sure people would talk about Ryno more.
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
Ryne was great, but he was no Joe Morgan, what follow are their best 5 year WARP totals Ryne (57.1) a fantastic total. Morgan (69.4) an absolutely bizarre figure. Next are their best ten year WARP totals. Ryne (96.5), again, a fantastic figure. Now Joe Morgan (118) outrageous. Morgan was far more dominant than Ryno at his best, and his best lasted far longer. Ryno might have had comprable numbers had he played more...but he didn't play more, that matters. Ryne's career OPS was .796 Morgan's was .819. Yes, Joe played 500 more games, he also reached base 4422 times. Ryne reached base 3181 times. This is a big, big difference, and is not accounted for solely by the difference in games played. Maybe people would have talked about Ryno more, but if they said he was better than Joe Morgan, that would be wrong.
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Anthony Rescan about 1 year ago
Good points. Well since I don't want to get in a bind here, who do you think is better defensively Ryno or Morgan.
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
I think I would go with Sandberg on that one. Granted I never saw Joe Morgan in person, but I think Ryno's numbers are a little more impressive. Per 162 games, Ryno had 516 assists. Per 162 games, Joe Morgan had 445 assists.
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Juan Vallarino about 1 year ago
Carew gets mentioned at first and then is dropped off completely from the discussion.
What gives?
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
I may have forgotten to explain, but he didn't log enough time as a 2nd baseman to make that final cut.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
Here's my case that Roberto Aloamr is the greatest second baseman of all time - possibly one of the greatest five-tool players of all time - but especially 1990s. Alomar is one of the few players that one could argue was the "player of the 1990s" -- Bonds, McGwire, Griffey, Thomas and others are on that list.
FIELDING & THROWING
484 consecutive errorless chances -- MLB record
10 Gold Gloves at 2B -- MLB record
Holds AL record for most consecutive errorless games (104)
Holds AL record for fewest errors in a season (1992)
Holds AL record for highest career fielding -- 1000 games or more --percentage (.985)
(these records make him the greatest fielding second baseman of all time on paper, but do not quantify his exceptional range and finesse)
CONTACT
Career .300 hitter
No. 51 on all-time career hit list (just ahead of Lou Gerhig)
No 57 on all-time career runs scored list
Holds AL record for most runs scored by a switch hitter (1999)
No. 3 all time for career hits in a League Championship Series
No. 12 career batting
No. 6 all time for career hits in an LCS
Led league in runs scored in 1999
POWER
No. 12 all time in LCS RBIs
No. 41 in career doubles (41)
100 or more RBI twice (1999, 2001)
Four Silver Slugger awards (1992, 1996, 1999-2000)
SPEED
No. 40 on all time career SB ranking (474)
30 or more stolen bases eight times (1989, 1991-93, 1995, 1999-2001)
OTHER/OVERALL
made 12 straight All-Star teams (1990-2001) -- any other player with 12 or more appearances in IN the Hall of Fame, except for Pete Rose
1992 ALCS MVP
1998 All-Star Game MVP
1999 season regarded as one of the best overall offensive seasons by a 2B in history: .323 AVG., 24 HR, 120 RBIs. 37 SB, 182 hits
Considered at least the best 2B of the 1990s -- some compared him to Knoblach or Baerga but where did they end up? Biggio was never especially remarkable or explosive in the way that Alomar was, but has stuck around for a long time. I'm not sure if Alomar will be first-ballot in 2010 (I think) when he becomes elligible, but I think he should definitely find his way into the hall.
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
Interesting points. But You need to compare him to the other second basemen. These are allr easons why he is one of the great baseball players of all time, but you do not show me why he is better than the other 2nd basemen ahead of him on the list. Biggio was certainly as good as Alomar, although not as fun to watch play, never as smooth or exciting.
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
Furthermore...
Fielding:
errorles chances- more of an oddity than an enlightening statistic. An interesting oddity, but, would he really have been any less good had he made 1 error during that span?
10 gold gloves- Derek Jeter has 3, this means very little to me, we have more reliable information than that to work with
Fielding percentage- also, not particularly valuable, the issue is how many balls someone gets too, if they get to more balls its ok to make a few errors. This is valuable in conjunction with other numbers, but standing alone, it means very little.
Contact:
career .300 hitter. We should really be beyond pretending that BA is the offensive statistic to look at, the issue is OBP.
Alomar: .371, Biggio .363, Sandberg .344, Morgan . 392, Grich .371, Gehringer .404, Collins .424, Hornsby, .434, Doerr .362, Jackie .409, Nap .380.
Robbie does beter than some, worse than some. Even if you go by BA for some inexplicable reason, he is behind Gehringer, Collins, Hornsby, Jackie Robinson and Nap.
He is #51 on the career hit list. but he is BELOW Nap, Hornsby, Collins, Biggio and Gehringer, so how does this make him the best 2nd basemen ever?
Runs. He is #57, he is behind Biggio, Joe Morgan, Gehringer, Collins, Hornsby and Nap. Again, this is no argument in his favor.
I dont care about any of the LCS stuff, as the extra playoff rounds are obviously slanted toward contemporary players.
Power:
#41 in career doubles with 504, he is behind Biggio (668), Nap (657), Hornsby (541), Gehringer (574)
He had 2 100 RBI seasons...RBI are not so important either, but, ok. Hornsby had 5, Gehringer had 7, Doerr had 5, Nap had 4...
Speed:
he is #40 all time in SB with 474...Morgan had 689, Collins had 745.
Basically, none of these points mean that much. But if they do suggest anything, it is that Alomar, while truly great, does not really deserve to rank higher than any of these other men
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
"...I imagine there are dozens upon dozens of players who would be in the HOF if it were not for some injury or mishap."
Pete Reiser immediately comes to mind, especially since he suffered multiple injuries and mishaps, most of them having to do with colliding with unpadded outfield walls while running at top speed.
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
great example.
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
it occurs to me that I forgot to talk about Willie Randolph, he would not make it inot the top ten. But he certainly should have been part of the discussion. I probably have him ranked around #12 or so, which is still higher than most people would guess. He would not be an enitrely absurd pick for the HOF, even though it will never happen.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
great job with this list. A little surprised that you labeled Joe Morgan as "unintelligent" in your piece. I always have thought that Joe comes across as very informative and intelligent when it comes to the game of baseball.
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Ben Feldman about 1 year ago
I invite you to search the archives at firejoemorgan.com
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
Sure the guy sucks as a commentator, but that does not mean the guy does not know the game of baseball. Or as in your words is "unintelligent" when it comes to the game. Ask any coach, and they will tell you that Magic Johnson was one of the most intelligent players to ever play basketball. Intelligent as far as his knowledge of the game ON THE COURT. My point? Magic was also known as one of the worst play by play commentators ever to set foot in front of the camera.
So I agree that Morgan is not great at his commentary ESPN gig, but I do believe the man is very wise when it comes to his knowledge of the game.
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Jeff Gardina about 1 year ago
Jeff Kent doesn't merit even a mention? He's a .290 career hitter with substantially more home runs than any of the guys on this list. Only Hornsby and Lajoie have more RBI. He's almost at 2500 hits. He played on plenty of winning teams. And he WAS solid defensively. Having watched him on an everyday basis for sometime, I can say that he was excellent at turning the double play. He had an excellent arm. There is no way he ranks below grich or doerr. And I think he has to at least be put in the conversation with alomar, biggio, and sandberg.
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BabyTate about 1 year ago
Sheer fantasy. Should we underrate the accomplishments of players prior to 1947 based upon a conclusion that they didn't face black people? Should the accomplishments of the past 15 years be relegated to an asterik because the number of blacks has gone down while the number of foreign players has gone up? I completely disregard such unprovable statistics as accomplishments being more important when a certain race of player is involved in a game. That is a pop culture belief that once started, has snowballed without facts. Maybe we should put an asterik by Cal Ripken and Barry Bonds' accomplishments because they played in an age when Cuban nationals weren't allowed to play in maximum measure because of politics and well, everyone knows Cubans make the best baseball players. Right? There is no reason to bring race into any discussion of baseball performance. This harmful wedge issue divides the nation even today. Let's just review people as people.
Nap Lajoie, Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, Jimmie Dykes, Charlie Gehringer, Bobby Doerr, Jackie Robinson, Rod Carew, Joe Morgan, Bobby Richardson, and Bill Mazeroski are your best 2nd basemen of alltime. Remember some players played several positions in their career.
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Brant Brown about 1 year ago
I agree with Jeff. Kent is not getting his due here. You look at longevity, consistency, and production - Kent can compete with any of these players. Isn't the flashiest fielder and doesn't have the best range, but he gets the job done. In terms of pure hitters, he's among the best at second.
The fact that you think a case could be made for putting Willie Randolph in the Hall of Fame undermines your credibility as a baseball analyst. By that rationale, Ray Durham should also be up for consideration... Also, Doerr and Grich ahead of Alomar? What are you smoking? Alomar is arguably the best of the bunch.
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