Before Kane and Toews or Crosby and Ovechkin, there was Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux. Arguably (at least if you don't ask Gordie Howe or Bobby Orr) the two greatest hockey players to ever take the ice in any league, on any rink, in any corner of the world. But who is better?
Here are six reasons why the equation 66 > 99 might not have been true in your sixth grade Algebra class, but it holds true in hockey history.
6. I'll take Warren Young and Mike Bullard, you can have Mark Messier, Paul Coffey, and Grant Fuhr.
The caliber of teammates that Gretzky enjoyed playing with early in his career vastly attributed to his success. I'm not saying that without Messier, Gretzky wouldn't have won a Hart or an Art Ross Trophy, I'm just saying he might not have won as many.
If a team decided to concentrate on "99" for the night, no problem, he'd just dish it off to Messier. Close in a tight game, Wayne didn't have to press to get that insurance goal, he could just dump the puck in and watch Grant Fuhr carry the team to victory.
It wasn't until the arrival of Mark Recchi to Pittsburgh in the early 90's that Lemieux had another all-star caliber player to play with. This lack of another star teammate enabled teams to double-team Mario on every shift.
Not to mention that by the time Mario arrived in Pittsburgh in 1984, relocation was on the tip of every member of the Penguins' management team as attendance continued to fall year after year.
Despite being relied on to carry the load, Lemieux posted five 100-plus point seasons, won the Calder Memorial Trophy, a Hart, a Lester B. Pearson, an Art Ross, and three All-Star game MVP's by 1990.
5. Five Goals, Five Different Ways
On December 31, 1988, Lemieux became the first (and only) player in NHL history to score a goal in every possible game situation in the same game. Lemieux netted an even strength goal, scored on the power play, scored shorthanded, converted on a penalty shot, and added an empty netter to cap off a five goal, eight point performance.
What's even better? It was against the Devils.
4. Injuries? No Problem
Everyone knows that Mario battled injuries throughout his career, while Gretzky remained relatively healthy during his. But here's a few things you might not know...
In July, 1990, Lemieux underwent back surgery and was forced to miss 50 games during the 1990-91 season. Despite significant pain, Lemieux was back for the playoffs. Mario scored 44 points (16 goals, 28 assists), leading all scorers in the playoffs, and more importantly, leading the Penguins to their first Stanley Cup.
The following season, Lemieux played in just 64 games, but still won the Art Ross Trophy with 131 points. Gretzky played in 74 games with the Kings that year, finishing with 121 points. Oh, but he probably was battling a stuffy nose for a good chunk of the winter.
During the same '91-'92 season, New York Ranger Adam Graves etched his name at the top of every Penguin fans' hit list by slashing, and breaking Lemieux's wrist during the Division Finals. Mario missed five games, but still led all scorers with 16 goals and 18 assists, as the Penguins won their second consecutive Stanley Cup.
60 comments Last one added 3 months ago — Leave a Comment
Matt Scott 10 months ago
"While the title of "greatest" player is debatable, the title of "most productive" player is not."
Does that sentence not contradict the title?
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MJ Kasprzak 10 months ago
I will take these by point...
6. Messier spent a lot of time on the second line, so The Great One could not dish to him. Otherwise, your point is accurate--even on another line, he helped Wayne get wins and teams could not put their best D pair AND checking line on him. But I'll tell you what, Ronnie Francis had a pretty darn good line, too.
5. A statistical anamoly that is no more significant than Gretzky's scoring 50 points in 50 games.
4. His injuries meant he was not as reliable to be in the lineup, and that was why he had to leave the locker room. The Great One was there for his team for more games, even though one cannot blame Super Mario (it's not like he was Lindros--he didn't have the proverbial glass jaw, he contracted cancer!).
3. How great a player is has to do with what they did on the ice and in the locker room, not how they worked after their careers were over. But I can understand how this factor would make you more glad your franshise had Super Mario than The Great One.
2. If one can count on him being in the lineup, I agree. and let me add that I think he was better defensively because he was more physical.
1. Again, beating cancer is a great personal achievement and certainly more impressive. But not only do we not know whether Gretzky would have done that, Mario accomplishing that does not make him a better player. As a player, Gretzky has three times the championships and brought in more fans.
All that having been said, I hope you don't misconstrue those counterpoints as personal criticism of your view. This was a good article (four stars--woulda been five had you made the point that it was about why you prefer to have Mario the PERSON associated with your franchise instead of it seeming to be addressing Mario the PLAYER) and an important perspective to put out there. It looks like I was first to read it but I hope it gets lotsa traffic.
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BOB WINKLER 10 months ago
MARIO WAS THE GREATEST FORWARD OF ALL TIME.
WHAT MARIO ACCOMPLISHED IN HIS CAREER, WITH THE TEAM HE PLAYED ON SHOULD SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. ONE THING YOU WERE MISSING IN YOUR ARTICLE IS THAT MARIO DIDN'T HAVE A "BODY GUARD" BESIDE HIM EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. IF ANYONE EVEN CAME CLOSE TO WAYNE THEY HAD TO DEAL WITH MARTY AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT MARTY WAS CAPABLE OF DOING....
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Matt Homdis 10 months ago
While Lemieux could have become the greatest of all time, his health problems (while not always his fault), hinder his chance for the claim to that title.
Bobby Orr is a classic example of this, as he is without a doubt the best defenceman of all time by a long shot, he cannot be considered the best player of all time due to his injuries.
Also stating that one freak game is wrong as you cannot discount Gretzkys freak stats. 50 goals in 39 games, only guy to have ever score 200 points in a season, an astounding streak of 51 games with a point (in which he tallied 153 points).
The conversation of best of all time is always fun, but in hockey it just is impossible to do, Gretzky is the best we have ever seen, and no one will ever come close.
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Matt Eichel 10 months ago
Seems like another case of coulda, woulda, shoulda when it comes to Mario Lemieux. Don't get me wrong, I loved watching Mario Lemieux play, but it was just a troublesome roller coaster of a career for him.
But it's nice to see that the debate still rages on. Could Lemieux have scored 200 points in a season if he stayed healthy? Could Lemieux have eclipsed 2000 points if he was healthy? Could Lemieux have won another one or two Stanley Cups?
Good job! Good read!
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Matt Madrid 10 months ago
Agree with you 100%. Am a Penguins fan and have watched Mario growing up. Saw Mario and Jagr go up against Gretzky and Messier in the playoffs one year. Was a great game that we won in overtime. They call Greztky "The Great One", well I've always called Mario "The Greater One" with hopes of Crosby being "The Greatest One."
Good artcile. Go 'guins!
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Nelson Santos 10 months ago
Great article. Obviously written by a Lemieux fan though.
Your first point about who they played with is irrevelant. If that was the case we could make arguments for every player in the league. Gretzky by the way lead a team of Coffey, Lowe, Messier, Anderson and a Finn (when Finns were not rampant in the NHL) by the name of Kurri. These guys were all drafted by the Oilers and came into the NHL YOUNG....they grew to the players they were because of playing with Gretzky....not the other way around. Here's an intangible fact for you Gretz made everyone in the locker room better....Mario made his immediate line mate have a better season (i.e. Warren Young and Kevin Stevens), BTW you listed Bullard....he scored 100 points in one season with CGY....nothin wrong with playing along side a 100 point player.
As for the 5 goals 5 different ways. That is one game. albeit a great one, but he never got 10 points in a single game therefore I could argue Sittler is better than Lemieux.
They are both owners of NHL teams...moot point that has nothing to do with hockey skill. Also the lockout, lottery draft selection and Crosby saved the Pens, not Mario.....if Pitt gets pick #2 and ends up with Bobby Ryan you are writing an article about Mario Lemieux Kansas City Penguins' best ever franchise player.
Injuries....well injuries are a part of the game....at one put Eric Lindros had the 3rd highest PPG average in the history of the league.....if you wrote this article 10 years ago would you ever pit Eric in with Mario and Wayne?
Mario is the all time most skilled NHL player ever. You can argue most productive....But the things Wayne did over his lengthy career will never ever come close to be comparable with any other player in the league!!!!
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Ron Van Lew 10 months ago
Nelson,
How is who Wayne or Mario played with irrelevant? It is totally relevant. With out team cohesion NO ONE not even "Gretzky" could win cups. Case and point LA and the Rags till they brought NY some players like Mess to help. Gretzky was a great player. But facts are facts he was treated like royalty in hard nosed sport. How many punishing hits did he ever give or take? Why was that. Mario was 2x the physical specimen Gretzky was,played on some horrid teams, never had anyone out there to protect him so he did not get hit,did not hang out at center ice waiting for clearing passes. Watch some old Gretzky highlights where he splits defenders with no real juke and they just refuse to touch him.
I respect Gretzky for what he did, but I will never say he was even better than Orr. is ti me or how many players from those Edmonton teams are already in the HOF. And one d man that is out has no reason to not be in. Mario did have some talent for a couple years but not the talent Wayne had for extended periods of time.
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Nelson Santos 10 months ago
Sorry Eric forgot one point...as did you.
Mario only won 2 cups once Pittsburgh surrounded him with PROVEN NHL STARS....Paul Coffey (who was far better than as to when he was 18 on EDM), Ron Francis, Bryan Trottier, Larry Murphy.....so your point about Wayne having a better supporting crew is flawed...or you should at least mention that maybe Lemieux never wins a cup unless Pitt acquires quality players to help him along the way.
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Chris Pope 10 months ago
I did something similar a little while ago. Feel free to check it out.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/36505-is-wayne-gretzky-truly-the-great-one
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G P 10 months ago
Wayne Gretzky has more assists than anyone has points... ever. Assists.
I believe, as do a lot of people Jarri Kurri is a Hall of Famer because he played the wing for "The Great One."
Luc Robatille too anyone?
Wayne Gretzky made his line mates way better than they should have been.
Another stat is 50 goals in 39 games. WOW.
Mario is amazing, but not better than Gretzky. Never has, never was, impossible.
Also. I don't recall Mario hosting SNL... maybe the most important stat of all.
Great article!
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Greg Caggiano 10 months ago
Any player who plays in less games will have a higher PPG AVG, so I really don't look at that when comparing players. Overall, good article about two phenomenal players...
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Tyler Hill 10 months ago
I think I'm changing my short list to say Lemieux, very good points.
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Spencer Callaghan 10 months ago
The majority of arguments used to declare Lemieux great than Gretzky are based on speculation, extrapolation and imagination.
Yes he COULD have been better, yes he had the POTENTIAL to be better but he wasn't.
You could say the same thing about Bobby Orr, a career cut short by injury.
In the end, Gretzky IS better, based on real things like stats, awards and facts, not speculation and "what ifs".
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Tyler Hill 10 months ago
Orr was better than Gretzky anyway.
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Shawn Owens 10 months ago
Good article and great points made by all.
One point missed, Gretzky put together the gold medal hockey team for Canada.
The questions becomes because a few people mentioned it.
You have 5 Gretzky's, 5 Lemieux's, 5 Howe's and 5 Orr's. Who do you take?
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john parent 10 months ago
easy choice...5Orr's the "original great one"
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MR CONTROVERSY 10 months ago
well i would like to start off with gretky's rookie year . as well as it being his rookie year it was also messiers rookie year who only scored 12 goals , followed by a 23 goal season . it wasnt till mess's 3rd year were he really started to produce and playing with gretz. . the differance being is that wayne made everyone around him better . with out question .
i really can't see how you can try to compare the pens to the kings , who had no body except gretz. mario had jagr as well as a stacked roster .
geetz. has 10 , TEN scoringing titles. lol the hart trophy something like 9 times . he would have won the calder trophy if not for some lame reason , that he played in other league .
your also forgeting his years with the blues. another team that had had virtually noone . but yet he still came out on top of in points . after his years in edm. he went to teams that didnt have any worth while players . yeah the kings later on they added to the roster , but nothing close to what the penns had .
marios lines were feared as soon as jagr and lemu hit the ice . gretz. was feared as soon as he walked in the building lmao
noone can ever take away mario's toughness or should i say love for the game . cancer , back surgery . and came back to play . toughness is one thing , being the greatest is another . you article talks about 2 of the greatests of all time . with out question . but you have to look at the whole pictre. who they had with them through out their entires careers and what they did . mario had much better players with him threw out his compared to gretz/ great article though ...
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Dan London 10 months ago
I just added a post to my site about mario. Great minds!
http://www.puckhogblog.com/2008/08/22/the-3-top-mario-lemieux-goals/
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Dan London 10 months ago
Mario saving the pens NUMEROUS times is simply amazing. Sure he was prtecting himself for all teh money he was owed....but the $$ he generates for the city is staggering!
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Spencer Callaghan 10 months ago
It wasn't just Mario who saved the Penguins.
Unlike other franchises, Bettman and the NHL were not going to allow the Pens to move, that is a huge factor in how many chances Lemieux got to revive the team.
Winnipeg, Quebec City, Hartford, etc. didn't get that much support from the NHL.
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Dan London 10 months ago
Why would Bettman not let them move? He might not like Canada, but he seems to be open to KC and Vegas.
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Spencer Callaghan 10 months ago
Why wouldn't he? Because Pittsburgh is a fairly large East Coast media market with 2 Stanley Cups to its name and is one of the longest standing non-Original 6 teams in the league.
Yes Pittsburgh COULD have gone to KC or LV but they didn't, unlike other teams that have moved, Pittsburgh was given chance after chance after chance to get things in order.
I'm not saying Lemieux doesn't deserve credit, but he was also given a lot more latitude than other cities were who lost their teams.
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D K 10 months ago
I think what the writer is saying is "Mario had more skill than Wayne". And as a huge 99 fan, this statement MAY be accurate. However, the only way to measure this statement is in the actual numbers. Part of what made 99 so good is that he was lucky enough and skilled enough to avoid major injuries - avoiding hits like the ones that Lindros took helped 99 to stay healthy, and essentially ended 88's career. Lemieux on the other hand was dealt a raw deal in life with many of his health problems. No fault of his, but his numbers are not there. Could Mario have broken 99's records, I am SURE he could have broken some of them. But at the end of the day who had better stats is a moot point because one of them beats the other hands-down on what is actually in the books. Perhaps "Billy Bob Kabob", the 8 year old from Alaska COULD have done 300 points in a season and 3000 in a career in the NHL, but he lost a leg at 9 and never made it to the NHL - doesn't matter in this conversation as the point is that he didn't do it. Is anyone better than Phelps? Perhaps. But Phelps is the one with the medals.
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Eric K 10 months ago
Thanks to everyone for your comments. This has always been my favorite debate, and I appreciate everyone's input.
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Andrew Mason 10 months ago
points per game can lie very badly. Especially when Mario played in over 500 less games than Gretzky. take for example: Player A scores 15 goals and 5 assists over the course of 20 games for a point per game average. Player B scores 8 goals and 6 assists in seven games for a 2 point per game average. Now tell me who is better? Player B had a better point per game average but has played in only seven games so what will he keep up that production over the next 13 games? Otherwise nice article but that one and that Mario beat cancer as a reason he is better are both weak. Its fantastic Mario did that but how does that make him better than Gretzky?
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Nick The Only 10 months ago
Gretzky's points record = ridiculous. Mario was phenomenal, but he just was not as good as Gretzky.
Gretzky had FOUR 200 point season's to Lemieux's ONE.
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Jeff Snyder 10 months ago
Lemiux was a far greater goal scorer than Gretzky was because he needed to be since he really didnt have another excellent player to dish to in the first few years in his carreer. In 915 carreer games, Mario had 690 goals. Gretzky had 894 goals in 1,487 games. Gretzky played in 494 more games than Mario. Had Mario been healthy and not taken a few years off, he most likely would be the leading goal scorer of alltime. But Gretzky was the better talent as he made everyone around him better.
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Matt Homdis 10 months ago
Gretzky had 4 consecutive seasons with more then 70 goals....
Scored 50 in 8 consecutive seasons....
later on in his career he become more of a passer, but you cannot deny his greatness as far as a goal scorer...oh and during those later years he only scored something like 300 goals...
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steve scott 10 months ago
different players different styles different team mates they were both great hockey players and i think there is reason to question gretzky s thrown as the greatest hockey player ever. but quoting one game stats won,t convince me. darryl sittler in 1976 scored 10 points in one game 6 goals and 4 assists, gretzky nor mario ever did this, does it mean sittler was better i think not
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steve scott 10 months ago
we may be having the same discussions of crosby and ovechkin years from now
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Ryan McFadden 10 months ago
Funny how theres no mention of certain guy with a mullet.. Jagr. Penguins bias.
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Bryan Thiel 10 months ago
Great, thought-provoking article Eric.
Although there are differences between the two, it's always more interesting if there is a "light to the dark" in the "greatest player" debate. If Gretzky played 20 years before Lemiuex, then the argument is moot, as one dominates one generation, and one dominates another. But with both of them (and with Ovechkin and Crosby now), the "rivalry" adds spark to the two sides of the argument, and makes everything more interesting because you can compare ones weaknesses to the other and vice versa. It's much more interesting than following one great player like Tiger Woods or Michael Jordon who never really had legitimate competition during their careers to their legacies. This is just one of the areas in which hockey has been so fortunate.
Yet again, great work!
BT
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Ryan McFadden 10 months ago
the more i read this article, the more i question your intelligence
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Eric K 10 months ago
easy solution to that problem... stop reading the article.
even a dummy like me can figure that one out
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Larry D 10 months ago
15 consecutive seasons with 100+ points... the next closest is 6. Wayne overcame defenders at will.... the only thing Mario could overcome was cancer.
No contest.
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Ron Van Lew 10 months ago
Pretty classless comment.
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Eric K 10 months ago
Cancer, 2 back surgeries, a broken wrist, a hernia....
and maybe it's just me, but overcoming cancer and returning to play a professional sport says alot about a guys' character. Much, much more so than to deserve such a derogatory comment.
I don't care if you like Mario or not, at least show an ounce of human decency and respect a guy that beat cancer, and not just beat it, but returned to playing professional hockey after beating it.
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Larry D 10 months ago
Bill Masterson calling.... uhhh I give a shit. I got Hart on the line... you know the most prestigous award in hockey... WG won it 9 times, in fact, won it more times in a row than Mario even got mentioned.
Classless?? Classless?? Classless is forcing an 18 year old player to sleep at your house. I wonder if he gave Sydney some Jesus Juice too.
Talk about character.... at least Wayne knew when to hang up the skates... Mario should have learned when to quit. I guessed they didn't teach at Chemo.
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TJ Zwarych 10 months ago
Although I do think Wayne was better, but can't really say cuz i was to young to see them in there primes, I would say cancer is a hell of a lot harder to overcome then defenders.
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Ron Van Lew 10 months ago
Eric,
I guess you gotta take the good with the bad. His bio says it all. A fan of hockey with blinders on. It is amazing how some people are so insensitive to cancer. But trust me if they had it, it would be a totally different story.
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Ron Van Lew 10 months ago
Eric here is another stat that may also help your debate. The untouched one in a little over 3 full seasons as an Oiler had as many goals as he had in 11 seasons being away from Edmonton. Yeah it is never about the players around you now is it? LOL. But with Mario in say his last his 6 semi full seasons his lowest goal total for a season was 28 in 67 games,yet in 43 games he netted 35 goals and the other seasons he had 50,69,69,44 he never had the fall off Wayne had in goal scoring. Besides Lemieux's career goal average per game was at a rate that he would have scored more goals in the same amount of games as Wayne did.
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Eric K 10 months ago
nice stats, Ron, thanks. Although it is hard to justify Mario being better by saying that he COULD have surpassed 99's goal totals, it does offer some hard evidence as to just how much the injuries affected his stats.
Mario should have learned when to quit? I guess that the passion he still had for the game was somehow overshadowed by lackluster performance after his two comebacks... no, wait a minute, he really didn't miss a beat. Besides the below average Penguin teams of the mid to late 90's, Mario was still amongst the best in the league in every offensive category. But they didn't teach that at chemo....it only taught him that if the talent WAS there and the desire STILL IS there, you can be successful, no matter if you're coming back from an ankle sprain, or a potentially fatal illness.
Sometimes heart, passion, and desire can overshadow any physical ailment, the Special Olympics being another prime example.
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Ron Van Lew 10 months ago
And as far as Lawrence saying Wayne knew when to hang up his skates I beg to differ.
1995-96 St. Louis Blues NHL 18 8 13 21
1995-96 Los Angeles Kings NHL 62 15 66 81
1996-97 New York Rangers NHL 82 25 72 97
1997-98 New York Rangers NHL 82 23 67 90
1998-99 New York Rangers NHL 70 9 53 62
I think he went about 4 years too long. The guy hit 25 goals 1 time in the last 4 seasons. For the NHL's leading goal scorer that I would think would be a bit embarrassing.
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Larry D 10 months ago
I don't know about being the leading goal scorer, but he was the assist king.
I can't believe he only had 102 points in 80 games he's terrible. Or 62 points in his final season centering the 2nd line on a sub par Ranger team... after being in the league for 20 years. Man he sucks.
Not only does Wayne have more goals than anyone in history he has more assists than anyone else has points.
Let me just repeat that. He has more assists than Mark Messier, the number two all time leading scorer, has goals and assists combined.
Take away all of Wayne's 894 goals and he is still atop the NHL in scoring.
No one touches Wayne ever.
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Matt Homdis 10 months ago
numbers like that from any other player would merit hall of fame talk in that era's clutch and grab ways.
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Spencer Callaghan 10 months ago
Ron: Did you actually READ those numbers?
He averaged over 90 points a season until his last season...in the dead puck era. That's good enough to have placed him in the top 10 in 2007-08.
And so what if he didn't average 25 goals, he was a set up guy late in his career.
In his last season with only 62 points he knew it was time.
Sounds like good timing to me.
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Alan Bass 10 months ago
I understand your reasoning, that Gretz played with better people in Edmonton, which is so true...But didn't Lemieux play with Jagr and Recchi? Two pretty amazing players if you ask me...
Also, Gretz still averaged more points per game that Mario did, so even if Mario played the same number of games, he would've been close, but no cigar.
Lastly, beating cancer is an unbelievable thing to do. If you can do it, you're a hero in my eyes. But beating cancer does not make you a great hockey player. They are two separate things. He may have been the Bill Masterton Trophy winner of NHL History, but cancer does not mean he's good at hockey.
Don't get me wrong, Mario is an unbelievable player, but still only the second best forward in NHL history in my opinion :)
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steve scott 10 months ago
possibly mario was as skilled or more than wayne, and maybe would have done as well or better if he had as long and healthy career, but that facts remain wayne has the numbers and records, mario does not for what ever reason.
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MR CONTROVERSY 10 months ago
seems like alot of ppl got off the story here . the article isn't about moving the team or how much money mario made the team. lol . this is such a huge debate all in its self . i mean you would have to go threw each players career and see who they had playing with them each year and what they did that year . assists , goals ect... i didn't do the whole career of them , i did just the fisrt 5 years . as greatt as mario was , { can not take that away from him } he was always surrounded by very good player that were producing the whole time they were in pitts.. where as wayne didn't have that luxury . every one talks about him and messier , but mess didn't start doing anything till 3 rd year . the great one did his thing from start to finish . and mostly by him self ... 99 is the greatest of all time and no one will beat his records ... go rangers
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MR CONTROVERSY 10 months ago
seems like alot of ppl got off the story here . the article isn't about moving the team or how much money mario made the team. lol . this is such a huge debate all in its self . i mean you would have to go threw each players career and see who they had playing with them each year and what they did that year . assists , goals ect... i didn't do the whole career of them , i did just the fisrt 5 years . as greatt as mario was , { can not take that away from him } he was always surrounded by very good player that were producing the whole time they were in pitts.. where as wayne didn't have that luxury . every one talks about him and messier , but mess didn't start doing anything till 3 rd year . the great one did his thing from start to finish . and mostly by him self ... 99 is the greatest of all time and no one will beat his records ... go rangers
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Wilson Yeung 10 months ago
Regarding Gretzky playing with better players, that's certainly true. But I wonder, if Gretzky wasn't there to dish off all those great assists, if Gretzky wasn't there to be as terrific as he was for the Oilers, would those other players have been as good as they turned out to be?
Don't forget that in the 1979, 1980, 1981 seasons, the Oilers team wasn't very special, but Gretzky's star still shone brighter than anyone else's in the league. And it shone consistently brighter for a decade. I strongly believe that if not for Gretzky, that Messier, Coffey, Kurri etc, would not have been the hall of fame players that they are.
As for the points-per-game statistic, I'm not quite sure where's you're getting your stats from. The NHL Career PPG leaders for the regular season are:
Gretzky, 1.921
Lemieux, 1.883
Bossy, 1.497
And for the playoffs, they're:
Gretzky, 1.837
Lemieux, 1.607
Pederson, 1.529
So Gretzky is #1 and Lemieux is #2. You know, #2 isn't bad you know. But you shouldn't make up statistics that aren't true. People might start calling you a liar.
I'm sorry that Lemeiux had cancer, and I'm glad that he recovered from it. But playing what-ifs isn't very useful. What if Orr had good knees, what if Bossy had a longer career, what if Suter never checked Gretzky into the boards in 1991, what if Gretzky had never been traded to the Kings, what if Guy Lafleur never smoked a cigarette?
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chase ruttig 10 months ago
2 of your arguements were about the kind of "person" Mario is, I am 100% sure that Lemieux is the better person, but the better hockey player is Gretzky.
P.S. I am pretty sure that Bobby Orr is the best hockey player, a defensemen scoring like that in the old-school days with all the slashing and obstruction is a lot more impressive than anything Wayne and Mario ever did
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Charbel Hassoun 10 months ago
ASWOME ARTICLE!! Gretzky did have some garbage goals, not taking anything away from the guy, but the goalies in the early eighties couldnt stop a beach ball, let alone one of Wayne's "marquee" slap-shots. I don't remember seeing Wayne deek a player out of his skates or score a breakaway with 2 d-man and a center riding along on his back. If Mario was in Edmonton and Gretz was a Pen, who knows... but it is what it is and Wayne does own all the records.
One thing I did want to point out though, Mario was going out there at less than 50% health most of his career and still scoring multiple goals/assists every night, he couldnt even bend over to tie his own skates but he was still managing to put on a show. Could you imagine what the numbers would be if he was at 100% health?
Gretzky had the stats, but to me he wasn't nearly as impressive or as finesse as Mario Lemieux.
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Jon Lambert 10 months ago
Unless he did it twice.......Lemieux's 5 goals 5 differnet ways was against the Devils NOT the Flyers. Just to back up I'm right look up December 31, 1988.
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Kelly Coder 8 months ago
I'm a huge Lemieux fan and I love reading about him, but boy do I wish I could have the last 25 minutes back...
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a b 8 months ago
The December 31, 1988 Game where Lemieux scored 5 goals 5 ways was against the New Jersey Devil.
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Bob Junker 7 months ago
If Gretzky played today there would be a handful of players better than he; Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin. Mario would dominate in any era because he was large and had the best hands in hockey. I've never seen any highlights of Gretzky scoring with three guys on his back.
No coach would EVER choose Gretzky over a healthy Lemieux.
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rob 3 months ago
Really? I think many coaches would have chosen Wayne over Mario. For one thing, you have to qualify with Mario's health. That is a huge issue. But even when he was healthy, Lemieux never had 163 assists in a season, or 92 goals, or 50 goals in 39 games, or a 51 game point scoring streak (where Wayne averaged 3.0 ppg during the streak!). These aren't career numbers - of course Mario would be unable to match these because of health issues. But I'm talking single season (or even partial season!) records that Mario had a dozen opportunities to break, and never did.
I think given one player who is going to put up incredible numbers but miss many games or even entire seasons with illness and injury, or another player who is going to put up even BETTER numbers, but do so without major injury or illness, who wouldn't take the second choice? Even when he was healthy and winning scoring races, he didn't dominate by the huge margin that Gretzky did. And Lemieux's closest competators was often Jagir. For all the "teammate debate", Wayne's closest competition was almost NEVER another Oiler. It was usually Bossy, Dion, or Lemieux. For a guy to be getting over 100 assists a year, and yet not have his linemates (the guys he's setting up 100 times a year!!!) not be #2 in league scoring is just insane. The difference is that EVERYONE on the ice with Wayne became a scoring threat. Guys like Semenko were getting 30 goals a year. Bernie Nichols, a decent player but no superstar by any means, became at that time only the 5th player in history to break 70 goals (Wayne and Kuri being 2 of the other 4).
Gretzky had 3 different seasons where he had more assists than anyone else had points. That means 3 times he could have won the scoring title without scoring! NO ONE in any team sport has ever dominated their competition to that degree. Ever.
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Stanley S 5 months ago
Gretzky knew how to avoid those 3 guys.
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