Hammer Charlie Weis all you want for his arrogance and physical appearance, but his capacity for self-assessment isn’t as distorted as we’re led to believe.
Weis knows he’ll never be able dive on the pile in practice or rub shoulders with rap stars. Nor does he have major college or professional playing experience. Which is at least part of the reason he hired Corwin Brown and Michael Haywood.
As a result, and despite all the talk of racism that’s surrounded Notre Dame since the firing of Tyrone Willingham in 2004, the Irish have two minority coordinators.
None of last year’s top 25 college football programs can say the same.
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It’s been three years since Weis succeeded Willingham at Notre Dame. With another college football season on the horizon—and the two coaches set to square off in Seattle this October—we will undoubtedly be forced to rehash that transition and the coaches’ comparative merits after three seasons.
Regardless of where you fall in the Willingham-Weis debate (full disclosure: I believe firing Willingham was absolutely the right move,) what can’t be disputed is the perceived legacy of racism that the debacle left behind.
Those of us who were on campus and around the university when Willingham was terminated know that the decision divided a student body and a fan base. It also attracted a tremendous amount of negative press—some warranted, some unfounded.
And because the Irish were 3-9 last season, what Notre Dame is currently doing for minority coaches probably won’t get any ink anytime soon.
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Friday, at a forum organized by the National Football Foundation, coaches and administrators discussed minority hiring practices and considered a possible Rooney Rule for college football.
In 2007, minorities held seven of the 119 Division I-A head coaching positions. Blacks held six. And according to the Black Coaches Association, African-Americans account for less than 13 percent of offensive and defensive coordinators around the country.
So not only is there a lack of minority presence in the head coaching ranks, there also doesn’t appear to be a next generation of assistants ready to take the reins.
With Karl Dorrell finished at UCLA, and with Miami’s Randy Shannon and Washington’s Tyrone Willingham both in tenuous situations, the statistics could get worse before they get better.
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Recruiting is the lifeblood of college football, and since Weis’ arrival in South Bend, you can count on one hand the number of schools that have recruited better than Notre Dame.
Haywood and Brown have been a huge reason why.
It’s not a question that will—or should—be asked of a recruit, but it’s reasonable to assume that young black coordinators relate well to the nation’s top recruits, the vast majority of whom are black themselves.
Weis knows he can wear all the Super Bowl rings he wants, but recruiting decisions are often based on these relationships with coordinators and assistants. And high school players seem to be drawn not just to Weis, but to Haywood and Brown.
(It should be noted that Notre Dame’s recruiting coordinator Rob Ianello, who is white, also deserves a lot of credit.)
Now those highly-touted recruits are becoming upper-classmen, and Notre Dame’s schedule is finally relenting. Only Mark May—ironically, an outspoken critic of minority opportunities in college football—could look into a camera and bet against the Irish returning to national prominence in the very near future.
The Notre Dame faithful should be optimistic about the opportunity Brown and Haywood have to excel on their own merits. If the Irish achieve success in the coming years, the assistant coaches deserve a Parcells-sized share of the credit.
Not only did Weis appoint the duo, he’s delegated control of their respective units. So if Brown and Haywood help make Notre Dame dominant again, athletic directors will line up to offer them head coaching positions.
This isn’t affirmative action. This isn’t Notre Dame trying to compensate for cutting ties with Willingham.
Weis chose Brown and Haywood because of their pedigrees, resumes and potential. And maybe he chose them because he was humble enough to recognize that they could compensate for a few of his shortcomings.
This fall, you can expect to read plenty about those shortcomings—but hopefully it won't be too long before you read another article about how a school that fired a minority head coach produced two more in his absence.
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2 months ago
I'm sure you're using recruiting rankings from scout.com, rivals.com or espnu but the idea that only five schools have out recruited Notre Dame in the last few years is perposterous.
"since Weis’ arrival in South Bend, you can count on one hand the number of schools that have recruited better than Notre Dame."
I think that the recruiting numbers for Notre Dame are skewed largely in an effort to sell subscriptions to recruiting sites, but also more often inflated based upon the former stature of ND. Similar to Duke being stacked with McDonald's All-Americans in basketball. Yes the kids at ND are labled 4 and 5 stars but when they step on the field the lack of talent is exposed. I honestly and truly believe that the majority of BCS schools have a deeper, more talented roster than ND.
In so far as the basic tone and topic of this article the idea that you need black coordinators to land black athletes is insulting to the recruits. Kids don't pick schools because the coaches look like them, they go places to play ball for a winner. I guess soon Tommy Tuberville, Frank Beamer, Jim Tressell and Les Miles will be parading black coaches out to try and land that big recruit.
I'm happy to see minority coordinators in major college football, however I hope that they're at ND because of their skills in managing offensive and defensive schemes and not because Weis wants some brothers around to get black kids to his school. I like your articles Trey, I just feel like this one is a stretch to say the least.
from 2 months ago
Thanks for your comments Michael. I went to great lengths to make sure "black coordinators = black recruits" wasn't the prevailing tone and topic of the article. Sorry it came across that way.
from 2 months ago
Michael,
Way to completely miss a point. In no way was it conveyed that a black coordinator is necissary to land a black recruit. Way to twist the race card in there fella.
Secondly, please name the schools that have out recruited Notre Dame in the past three years. I'm anxious to see the your research at work, seeing how you make a claim without backing it up.
While you're at it, please explain why a Notre Dame recruit is always knocked down a star or two after he commits if the ratings are based on making ND look good. It happens year after year if you stop to take a look at them.
Your baseless claims are not only that, they don't belong on this board.
If you have something to say, back it up with something verifiable. You might gains some credibility.
2 months ago
I think you did a great job writing the article Trey; you know those who disagree will always argue from a far right perspective. Being a black athlete myself, being of the same race plays a big part in how you relate to a person. About the crazy comment on Duke being "stacked with All-Americans," you haven't checked the basketball recruiting lately. If you did, you'd see Memphis, Kansas, UNC, as well as others bring in better talent than Duke. Coach K just knows how to coach the players he gets. We also will see what happens when our so called "talent" comes full circle. I hate to feel like I'm arguing with Michael, but I hate it when people make statements without really knowing the depth of ND football. On the surface it looks like ND lacks talent, but the other BCS schools didn't have gaping holes in their recruiting class, which forced freshman on the field. Comments like above put you in the ESPN/Mark May category.
from 2 months ago
I don't come from a far right or far left perspective and I'm relatively well informed on on the problems surrounding the ND program. They had a severe lack of talent that forced their young players to play significant roles and their inexperience was obvious. This year they should be a ton better and probably head to a bowl game, hopefully one they can win. I understand the statement that was being made, my only comment was that it seemed to overtly play up the black coordinators for black athletes idea.
In terms of ND's overall talent level I still believe the freshman and sophomore classes pale in comparison to other BCS schools classes of the same age. I think that all will come to light as those players attempt to move on to the NFL, so our argument will solve itself, agreed? I hope I'm wrong, when teams like Notre Dame, Nebraska, FSU, Alabama and Miami are good the world of college football is a better place.
The Duke comment was about their recruiting classes being ranked highly but the talent not translating to the court. They've had guards and forwards such as Greg Paulus, Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith, Taylor King and Kyle Singler on the same High School All-American teams as Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant, Ty Lawson, Thaddeus Young, Michael Beasley and Daquan Cook. When the whole team is examined the Duke players don't belong, in my humble opinion at least. They make the team because they've committed to Duke and the name holds serious clout.
2 months ago
Very good article, Trey. Mike Haywood and Corwin Brown will be head coaches in just a few years. It's great to realize how Notre Dame will have contributed to their development, while they have certainly contributed to Notre Dame. In the end, anyone should be judged on how they perform only. Hopefully, we will see many more talented, successful black coaches in college football soon. I hope you enjoyed my article.
2 months ago
"I think that the recruiting numbers for Notre Dame are skewed largely in an effort to sell subscriptions to recruiting sites, but also more often inflated based upon the former stature of ND. Similar to Duke being stacked with McDonald's All-Americans in basketball. Yes the kids at ND are labled 4 and 5 stars but when they step on the field the lack of talent is exposed."
WHAT?? That makes no sense Mike! So that means these players are ranked 4-5 stars because ND fans subscribe to these recruiting sites? So using that logic, if a player decommits from ND and goes to Florida, Florida's numbers then become skewed???
How a kid performs when he begins college ball vs. High school ranking is irrelevant. Those rankings are vs. his peers in highschool, not whether he improves. Just as there many 3 star recruits who greatly improve and become excellent players.
And...I may be incorrect, but wasnt Haywood once a coordinator at OSU?
2 months ago
In America, race will always be a debate. Even though we've come a long way since the days of segregation, sometimes, and with certain instances, it seems like we never got anywhere. Your article is extremely unbiased, did not throw anyone under the bus, and did not have a racial tone to it in the least. I realize that my words are simply another opinion, but I find it hard to see this article as anything but that. Great article, and very informative. Thank you for the knowledge!
2 months ago
yo michael it's pretty tough to make that assessment that the other schools have better underclassmen. The other schools don't have as many open positions as notre dame so they only play the couple superstars they feel are ready whereas nd is forced to play whoever they have at the position regardless of it is a freshmen.
Also, although you may think the rankings are buffed up to make notre dame people excited and get them to buy subscriptions, the websites aren't lying when they show these kids have offers from lsu, usc, michigan, ohio state, and florida. Most of the kids we're getting have the offers from those schools so call it inflated rankings all you want but those bcs schools are recruiting those players too.
2 months ago
I should have more clearly stated my point, I wasn't trying to slam Notre Dame or play the race card, my main point was that the race of the coordinators in relation to recruiting was a slippery slope. I'm a fan of Trey's writing and I understand his point; I was more or less playing devil's advocate in showing that the link between black coordinators and athletes might be overstated. Trust me it is great to see ND make headway in the realm of minority hirings and I wish more schools would follow suit. Sorry it has caused such an uproar.
As far as the Uncle Rico point about schools out recruiting Notre Dame in the last three years schools such as USC, Oregon, Texas, OU, Ohio St., Fla, UGA, LSU, Miami, FSU, Clemson and WVU come to mind as having out recruited ND. However, I understand that based on the rankings from recruiting service websites ND ranks out higher than all those schools on multiple occasions. After more closely looking at the issue talent development may be the problem as the big time recruits have yet to truly materialize out of these last few years of recruiting. If player development is the problem then Weis, the position coaches and the strength staff should get on the ball.
The recruiting talent argument will solve itself in the NFL drafts of 2009, 2010 and 2011 and I think that is something everyone can agree on, right?
from 2 months ago
Michael, you state Oregon, Texas, OU, Ohio St., Fla, UGA, LSU, Miami, FSU, Clemson and WVU come to mind as having out recruited ND in the past two years, yet you offer nothing to back it up.
To use your logic, I could throw UOP, Ball State, and Kalamazoo Valley Community College into a paragraph and state that they all out-recruited the schools you've listed.
If you're going to make rediculous statements, at least make a veiled attempt at supporting your arguement.
You further do damage to what little credit you may have had a shot at by disparaging the three top recruiting organizations in the game.
Please stop stealing precious moments from our lives from having to read such nonsense.
2 months ago
I can’t believe you guys are responding to one person’s blatant ignorance. I’ll take a wild guess here and speculate that Michael has never played college ball, nor has he ever been recruited by a I-A team before. Furthermore, if he even begins to assert that rankings can be credible predictors of future performance on another level for any team, then anything he says must be discounted completely. However, if his incredible insight on who has good recruiting classes and who does not happens to be accurate, he shouldn’t be posting comments here, he should be running his own recruiting site and dominating Scout.com, et al or at the very least: a very, very wealthy futures trader. Kids go to ND because of the University’s academic reputation, its legendary value system, and the historical significance of the program. Those are facts, by the way. If we can speculate on anything it would probably be that ND appears to have good coaches who happen to be good people, and that their race has nothing to do with their values and personalities. I’m so tired of whiners like Michael who make up the vast majority of this country, who make it so very hard to share ideas and thoughts without having to first walk on proverbial egg shells. We’re becoming a nation of smug pansies with paper-think skin, and that’s not a stretch to say. Michael is exhibit A.
from 2 months ago
"I’ll take a wild guess here and speculate that Michael has never played college ball, nor has he ever been recruited by a I-A team before. "
What does this have to do with his following of recruiting? I'd imagine that he, like many of us, follow through various scouting sites. Is there something wrong with that provided you don't take everything as absolute truth?
"ND appears to have good coaches who happen to be good people"
You know this for fact? Or is it that you're going based on the way they portray themselves in the media?
"I’m so tired of whiners like Michael who make up the vast majority of this country, who make it so very hard to share ideas and thoughts without having to first walk on proverbial egg shells."
At what point did you have to do such a thing?
Hard to share ideas? Not when you present them in a thoughtful, mature manner and don't resort to being a nasty, snarky critic. Please remove the stick from your behind.
Of course, I shouldn't be so quick to single you out. The theme in the CFB portion of this site seems to be centered around the following: read article, disagree with them and/or points, insult and berate writer instead of presenting a mature argument. Ask Uncle Rico, he knows all about that.
Now, with that out of the way..
Michael, you are totally, 100% wrong.
"I think that the recruiting numbers for Notre Dame are skewed largely in an effort to sell subscriptions to recruiting sites, but also more often inflated based upon the former stature of ND."
Because Notre Dame fans are the only people who track recruiting sites, apparently.
As far as numbers being skewed, there is a truth to that but mainly it's in the numbers, not the ratings. Some schools over-sign to compensate for those who will never make it to campus because of ineligibility or various other reasons.
Have there been cases of players being lower ranked and then gaining steam after being signed? Sure, but it could also be attributed to play or possible attention from other schools.
"Yes the kids at ND are labled 4 and 5 stars but when they step on the field the lack of talent is exposed."
They aren't "exposed" for a lack of talent. Most recruits get their rankings based on talent. If a recruit fails to live up to expectations, a myriad of reasons usually come into play, talent being the last of them.
"I honestly and truly believe that the majority of BCS schools have a deeper, more talented roster than ND. "
Then you are honestly mistaken. ND has been a strong recruiting destination under Weis and will continue to be so for the forseeable future. Look at the rankings of the recruiting classes he has hauled in. I know, rankings don't mean a lot, but for the time being it's really all there is to go on for the 07/08 classes.
As a Michigan fan, I don't like to compliment them often, but ND is a recruiting power and Weis does a hell of a job bringing in talent. ND will continue to bring in top recruits because of their academic prestige, ties to the NFL and general history of the program. It's as simple as that.
2 months ago
Michael,
How can you claim failure for recruits who will only now enter their Junior year? I don't think you understand the game of college football.....these other great programs you speak of......have had the luxury of taking every lineman in their FR class and redshirt them....to compete at the elite level in college football a HS football player needs two off seasons in college strength and conditioning programs until they are ready to truly compete.....because of ridiculous scholarship levels Weis inherited (70 scholarships...representing a total less than what SMU had while on the death penalty) lineman like sam Young were forced into action right away.....Judge these recruits this year....How do you know what Jimmy Clausen is after he came back from elbow surgery and was running for his life while also being about 15 lbs too light for major college QB? Seriously......such sweeping generalizations are usually made by the uninformed......BTW.....completely irresponsible for you to claim ND's 4 and 5 star recruits are "rated that way for the recruiting services" how does one quantify that that, measure it, or prove it? So there is no defense that you could ever accept because of your bias.
In addition, if you look at the points asigned by Rivals.com and compare Charlie's 3 years to Ty's 3 years.......Charlie's three years rank him 4th behind LSU and ahead of Texas.....Ty finished 28th behind Ariz St and ahead of UCLA.......and that doesn't factor the number of Ty's kids that left the team.....
2 months ago
Jeez, Ryan, how dense are you? Where to begin?
In regards to my guess that Michael has not been recruited before, you stated, “What does this have to do with his following of recruiting?” Uhhh, how about the fact I was simply questioning how Michael could possibly be able to tell anyone what every recruit in America is looking for when being recruited, especially if he hasn’t even lived the freakin’ process? He even concluded they go to places to play ball for a winner, yet doesn’t explain how Buffalo, Duke, etc. get players to commit all the time. Coming from the perspective of a person who has actually been recruited before, I can tell you there’s a whole bunch of things that I considered before choosing a college. Athletics was low on the list. If anything, I would think that every recruit has their own unique reasoning in mind and leave it at that. Michael’s skin color overreaction was unnecessary and ignorant.
Furthermore, Ryan, whether you attended college or not, reading comprehension is something you must have been exposed to at some point in your life. Right? However, your “You know this as fact?” comment following my statement that ND coaches are likable guys really floors me. Did you not see the “we can speculate” disclaimer I made before said speculation? The only facts I conjured up were regarding ND’s academic reputation and the historical significance of their program. Ok, now I’m being snarky.
2 months ago
I remember one recruit saying the reason he didn't pick Notre Dame is because the girls are not that good looking compare to the school he ended up choosing...believe that school was Georgia.
about 1 month ago
Michael.. just so you know, I read and understand your criticism of Trey's article. Where as I do NOT want to re-hash the tired old addage from the national media that has been kicked more than soccer ball during a English Premiere league match, (that is, ND was racist when it fired Ty), because many have explained that if that were the case, Willingham would NEVER have been hired to begin with.
There is some merit to your comment though that schools will NOT attract minority players simply because they have minority co-ordinators. (Anyone want to believe that, then I ask you to ask yourself, how did Willingham do when it came to recruiting top level minority players while he was at ND???) If kids and parents were so "hell-bent" on sending their talented sons to play for a coach that they could have related to, then Willingham would have three straight TOP 5 recruiting classes while he was at ND. That was NOT the case.
Which brings me to another point.
You claimed that ND has been out-recruited by the majority of BCS teams and the only reason that ND is ranked high by the recruiting pundits (ie Rivals.com, scout.com, espn, tom lemming etc...) is because they need the ND fan base to be excited and motivated to buy their services.
Well lets use the rivlas.com (who just evaluated ND to have the #2 recruting class in the USA this past year).
-In 2003 Willingham's first full year as head coach, ND finished with the #12 class in the US, a class that included future 1st rnd. pick Brady Quinn at QB, and Jeff Samardzjia at WR amoung its 22 signees that year.
-In 2004 Willingham's magic slipped. ND finished 5-7 in 2003 and if not for Julious Jones, they would have probably lost two more games (Pitt and Wash. St.) that year. The reruiting suffered as well. Ty recruited only 18 players. (While most schools NOT on probation sign 22-25 each year). And the IRISH ranking dropped TWENTY spots to #32.
--- So if these recruiting combines and publications were trying to sell their subscriptions by INFLATING ND's recruiting class ranking, they were doing a poor job of it. Oh by the way, that class had only TWO 4 star ranked players on it, Anthony Vernaglia and Junior Jabbie. Vernaglia was a huge disappointment his entire career at ND, *(much like Freedie Parrish of the 2003 class was). AND since your are basing your evaluation of ND being OUT-RECRUITED by most of the BCS schools in the country, on the performance of the CURRENT team, (which just went 3-9), that #32 class of 2004 was the senior class of the current team. Further, of the 18 scholarship recruits from that 2004 class, only FIVE were still on the team. So, given that number of losses, this class ranks MUCH LOWER. Now, lets take this ONE step further.
-In 2005, you have Ty being fired in DEC. and at that point he had verbals from 14 players. Two of them left (one went to Ohio St. and the other went to Florida) because they were a bit aprehensive over the media's overblown coverage of ND being racist for firing TY. That being said, Weis and his staff did the best they could to sign the remaining players (Weis, unlike many coaches who take jobs after players have verballed from High School, said that all of the recruits who were already verballed that ND would honor that comittment. Not all new coaches honor those commits). That being said ND finished 40th in the nation with ONLY 15 recruits (who were the Junior class last year ). Of the 15 only one (Joey Hiben) is no longer on the squad.
--- SO to further illustrate this for you and others, ND and Weis had NO CHOICE in replacing 17 starters from the 2006 team that went 10-3, with mostly freshman and sophomores. Because only 22 upperclassmen were on the team and of the 22 only 5 were actually recruited by Weis.
Go ask any coach in the country how hard would it be to field a team made up of MOSTLY true freshmen and true sophomores, and take on a schedule that started with 10 games vs teams that eventually played in bowl games last year, with FOUR of the first SIX starting on the road, in such hostile stadiums as Michigan and Penn St.??? Ask them how much success they could expect if their offensive line was inserting THREE new starters who had never played before, and a true freshman at QB, WR, and RB ??? Then ask them what kind of record do they think that they would end up with??
Now, lets look at Weis recruiting over the course of his Three full recruiting years at ND.
-2006 class , which includes Sam Young, Darrin Walls and James Aldridge, finished with TWENTY EIGHT (28) SIGNEES, and was ranked EIGHTH in the nation. (There have since been 6 players who have either transferred or suffered a career ending injury, but two where QB's because of the arrival of Jimmy Clausen )
-2007 class, which includes Clausen, Duval Kamara, Robert Hughes, and Armando Allen, finished EIGHTH as well, but only had 18 signees. Still the quality of this class gave ND a second straight top TEN class. They had as many as 14 of these recruits actually saw action last year.
and now the incredible 2008 class !!! Ranked #2 in the nation with 23 signees !!! Time will tell how significant this group will be, but as you said 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 draft boards for the NFL will see an increasing number of ND players on it. When you look at the current Irish, you are somewhat right, (most schools did out recruit ND for the current Senior and Junior classes,) and the rankings of #32 and #40 support that part of it. But the IRISH finished in the top 8 two years running for the current Sophs and freshman, and #2 for the incoming freshman this year. ALL 3 are WEIS recruiting classes.
The turnaround has started. I agree with you that these kids are not just coming to ND because ND has two black co-ordinators, but the evidence I've presented is showing that ND is not being out recruited as you suggested. I would say over the last three year, ND is right there with any program in the country. The youth of this team prevents us from knowing whether their classes were over-rated or not, but I like the idea of bringing many more 5 and 4 STAR players like Weis is doing, rather than bringing in 3 and 2 stars like Willingham was settling for.
So Mike, I went to the trouble to do this research, because I just don't want to come here and shout back with nothing to substantiate my argument. I agree in part with what you said about coaches ethnicity not being a big consideration by kids who are being recruited, but you can NOT say that ND has been outrecruited by the majority of the BCS schools over the last three years. But I really am glad that ND has coaches with the talents of Haywood (former ND player from 1982-1986) and Coach Brown, because they are quality men with great football minds, who will BE A BIG PART of ND's impending turn-around!!! And maybe then all the "racist" criticsm of ND can go away. It should have never started in the first place. Ty was fired for poor performance and poor recruiting. Pure and simple, nothing more... nothing less !!!
TWO YEARS FROM NOW, the majority of the top 25 will be the ones shaking in their shoes when the IRISH TAKE THE FIELD!!! The also-rans of college football will prefer to stay on the bus rather than take the Field. ND WILL BE DOMINANT AGAIN !!!
GO IRISH !!!
DIVE RIGHT IN !!!
JJ Rivera
about 1 month ago
John, you make a number of what appears to be well-informed arguments, though CWeiss's 3 year record is only a win more then Ty's....
but Dahhahhahha, yeah right, two years from now the top 25 will be shaking their shoes!?! suuuuure buddy, dominant, what ever you say. At best, you'll back door their way into the Armed Forces bowl against an undermatched team you'll lose to
I can't wait to see another few more undeserved bowl games gifted to you guys and watch ND add numbers 10, 11, and 12 to the Bowl Game losing streak. But you won't get there next year!
just in case your rose (not rose bowl) colored glasses tint your view of the past, here's how your super sweet recruiting classes have fared post season for the past decade plus......
January 2, 1995 Fiesta Bowl L Colorado 24 41
January 1, 1996 Orange Bowl L Florida State 26 31
December 28, 1997 Independence Bowl L LSU 9 27
January 1, 1999 Gator Bowl L Georgia Tech 28 35
January 1, 2001 Fiesta Bowl L Oregon State 9 41
January 1, 2003 Gator Bowl L North Carolina State 6 28
December 28, 2004 Insight Bowl L Oregon State 21 38
January 2, 2006 Fiesta Bowl L Ohio State 20 34
January 3, 2007 Sugar Bowl L LSU 14 41
2008? oh year, 3-9, haha, you lost to Navy.
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