I woke up this morning to a stinging allegation from Zenit St Petersburg coach Dick Advocaat:
"I would be happy to sign anyone but the fans don't like black players." I read in Saturday's Daily Record.
Zenit, who are in with a real chance of reaching next months UEFA Cup final, have it appears a rather backwards policy—something that in today's European football climate is quite remarkable.
Remarkable it would be—were it not been apallingly racist!
Advocaat, a former Dutch national coach, claims that he needs black players to improve his squad but the clubs fans to reject the notion outright as they don't want black players at their club!
Another huge talking point surrounds the clubs most famous fan, the next Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.
Does he subscribe to these views?
One would surely hope not, given his position of power.
I'm shocked and appalled by Russia's football fans' backward nature and their attitude towards black football players.
Many clubs in Russia have black players from all over the world but Zenit seem set on being Russia's premier all star 'white' football team.
It's a shame really and if there is even a hint of racist chanting as Bayern Munich meet them in next weeks Russian leg of the UEFA Cup semi final or even at the final itself in Manchester, I hope UEFA and FIFA combine to throw the book at them.
I'd also challenge Mr Medvedev to change his beloved clubs appalling transfer policy and bring his team back into the 21st Century!
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2 months ago
Good article.
from 2 months ago
Thanks for the pick mate.
2 months ago
That's really distressing to hear. Thats fucked up..
from 2 months ago
This is true Salomon, I just couldn't ignore it.
2 months ago
That's pretty disgraceful but one that isn't surprising. Congrats on the Pick of the Day, Andrew!
from 2 months ago
Thanks alot Tim.
2 months ago
That is pathetic...talent and ability are never judged by black and white..atleast it was not when i was playing..
from 2 months ago
Funnily enough it often works the opposite way in Africa with whites not allowed on black teams...a silly world we live in.
2 months ago
Sounds a bit like the policy their UEFA cup final opponents had not too long ago of refusing to sign Catholics.
The racists V bigots final?
from 2 months ago
Sounds like someone is a celtic fan.
from 2 months ago
I came across your article after hearing about the St Petersburg managers recent comments.
When I wrote my original comment I never expected in a million tears the writer of the article, who had (rightly) criticised Zenit's racist policy, to respond to my point with such an infantile remark.
I then read a few more of your articles and realised that you happened to be a Rangers fan. After I realised this I hoped you wouldn't deny Rangers' anti Catholic signing policy. You haven't, but you have attempted to brush over it with your comment.
It seems to me your opinion is that Racist/Sectarian signing policies are bad, unless it's your team.
from 2 months ago
The Rangers policy ended years and years ago John. I felt your comment was extremely harsh and infantile in its own way. I therefore responded to it with a comment that I felt it deserved.
Yes the Rangers policy was wrong but it has been rectified and as a country we are trying to heal the rift. Your comments help that process in no way! I still don't see where you get "It seems to me your opinion is that Racist/Sectarian signing policies are bad, unless it's your team"?
from 2 months ago
When I made a comment pointing out that this years UEFA cup final will be played by the only two teams (that I am aware of) to have had a segregated signing policy, I wasn't expecting to be told my comments were against some sort of healing process.
It's not my job (or Scotland's) to heal any 'rift' caused by Rangers' sectarian signing policy, that job lies solely with Rangers (maybe they could start with an apology?).
Lets be honest here, if you didn't happen to be a fan of Rangers my comment would probably have passed by without note. However, you got all defensive. If you can't accept criticism of the team you support (especially considering I wasn't even aware of the team you supported when I made my original post) then I'm afraid objective football journalism may not be the career for you.
from 2 months ago
I have accepted the criticism, Rangers policy was wrong in every way. I just felt it was bitter of you to bring it up and thats why I responded. Am I not entitled too? If someone had a dig at your team would you not respond?
And you know fine well I meant the on going sectarian problem in Scotland and Northern Ireland (not just the transfer poilcy), which I do not believe to be soley Rangers problem.
I didn't get 'that' defensive John, I merely pointed out what I thought of your comment and tried to respond to it.
As for objective footballing Journalism, that is not what this site is about. How that has any bearing on my ability as a journalist I can only wonder?
You are though, entitled to your opinion.
from 2 months ago
I'd imagine you have no links to Zenit St Petersburg or Russian football, so the piece you wrote was objective journalism. It isn't the same as your Rangers related articles, you didn't write it as a fan.
Any sectarian problems in Scotland are not related to the article in question and as such this is not really the place to discuss them.
My original statement is related to the topic as Zenit are soon to be playing Rangers. My statement was also factual because Zenit's signing policy is similar to that once held by their soon to be opponents.
2 months ago
BY Paul
Got to agree with ya John on that one i think manchester police know that they have a potential powder keg about to go off in their city.
from 2 months ago
Rangers have been to 8 countries this year and their has been no trouble. So where do you get your allegations Paul? Jealous are you?
2 months ago
I think to say there has been no trouble is a little disingenious. There has been no reported trouble in the UK I am told. Here in Spain it was a little different. There was a lot of trouble. So much that the Alcalde of Barcelona was severely criticised for instructing los Mossos d'esquadra NOT to arrest Scottish fans. Plaça Catalunya was a no go area for citizens. La Vanguardia and many other catalan newspapers carried editorials about their behaviour including an open letter to Rangers fans saying that they are not welcome to return. The behaviour of these fans has resulted in a complete change in policy regarding away supporters of British teams. As I understand it, this was not reported in the British media. To their credit Rangers also changed policy after these scenes by taking full control of their ticket allocation, giving them free to selected fans and making the difference up by charging home fans more.
I would be interested to know how the fans of Zenit St petersburg have been behaving during away trips. Could be that they do not have a sizeable away support but many russians have much more disposable income than the old stereotype suggests.
It really is time for FIFA and/or UEFA to do something truly meaningful instead of paying lip service to the problem. I believe it shold NOT be left in the hands of the national federations as time and again they have been shown to take little or no action. Perhaps 4 seasons ago Atletico Madrid were fined a total of 15000€ for several racist incidents. The Spanish FA simply stuck it's head in the sand with regards to the infamous England friendly in the Santiago Bernabeu(which I watched with several very embarassed Catalans). Rangers operated their signing policy with the full aquiesence of the Scottish authorities, only changing when Uefa finally started to make noises.
IF Zenit's fans indulge in in their previous antics (Klan outfits, 'lynched' monkey dolls) I belive that upon winning the trophy it should be handed to Rangers as punishment.
2 months ago
I apologize as I new nothing of this Barcelona incident. As you say Rangers and indeed Celtic have taken steps to make sure the few trouble makers are dealt with accordingly.
Thanks for the comment.
100,000 Rangers fans will travel to Manchester as that is the size of our club and quite rightly their behaviour will be watched closely. We have had problems in the past and I fully admit that but we are doing everything to change such views.
2 months ago
Sorry man, but Advocaat did not say that "the fans don't like black players" in the interview. Daily Record added this and other phrases.
Neither Advocaat said nor Daily Record wrote that Advocaat "has tried to sign black players on numerous occasions, only for the clubs fans to reject the notion outright as they don't want black players at their club!"
Daily Record lied, you repeated and multiplied.
You owe Zenit fans and St. Petersburg an apology.
2 months ago
"has tried to sign black players on numerous occasions, only for the clubs fans to reject the notion outright as they don't want black players at their club!" I never quoted that......look up and see.
That wasn't a quote but his quote in my own words....That is what i read in the Daily Record and I've never seen an apology in the Daily Record telling me they made it up.
So I can only stick by my words.
How do you know this? If you tell me then I can check it out...until then I owe no apology. Sorry Nikolai.
from 2 months ago
Andrew, you us an apology since the moment you published the article, because people could read the article since then. An analogy: one is a thief not after this is found out, but after the deed is done.
It was your responsibility of a journalist to check the facts on which you base your conclusions.
If you want to make up for what you apparantly have not done before, read the original interview http://www.sports.ru/blog/dud/4622031.html after words "Темные и «Зенит»". Or you want to be lazy yet another time and complain that you do not know any Russian and therefore you would just rather repeat the Daily in your own words when you write about situation in St. Petersburg?
But you even have failed to quote the Daily "in your own words" correctly. The Daily wrote "... in future, I have to ask them outright how they'll react if we sign a dark-skinned player." And you wrote that Advocaat "has tried to sign black players on numerous occasions, only for the clubs fans to reject the notion outright as they don't want black players at their club!" How are your words are based on Advocaat's words or the Daily words? What you call "his quote in your own words" is simply not his and not a quote, it's purely your words: Advocaat and Daily have never referred to even one attempt to buy a black player rejected by the fans!
Andrew, you should really understand that your article is nothing, but an offence to millions of Zenit fans, and it does nothing, but disseminates Russophobia. This especially hurts, because Russia did not have a tradition of using black people as slaves unlike to some other nations.
from 2 months ago
Firstly Nikolai this is not a site for Journalism but for ones opinion. I read the Daily record and very carefully transfered my thoughts from what was printed.
"I would be happy to sign anyone but the fans don't like black players."
When Advocaat tried to sign Frenchman Mathieu Valbuena recently, the first question on fans' websites was: "Is he a negro?" as written in the Daily Record.
"The problem is our fans. Quite honestly, I do not understand how they could pay so much attention to skin colour. For me there's no difference between white, black or red.
"But the fans are the most important thing Zenit have. That's why I have to ask them outright how they'll react if we sign a dark-skinned player.
"Frankly the only players who can make Zenit stronger are dark-skinned. Look at the Brazilians who play for CSKA."
You said "Advocaat and Daily have never referred to even one attempt to buy a black player rejected by the fans!" the above proves you are wrong.
2 months ago
I just want to clarify a few issues. Firstly I'm not Russophobic as you suggest. Anyone of the quoted sentances spoken by Dick Advocaat point to the racist fews held by fans of the club.
I'd understand if he suggested a few fans or minority group but he did not as far as I'm aware do so. Therefore I feel my article is valid.
I also understand that all teams have fans who are no good and have their own agenda's.
2 months ago
Andrew, it is simply impossible to logically derive from the above quotes that either Adocaat or Daily referred to even one attempt to buy a black player that was rejected by the Zenit fans. You are completely wrong!
And Zenit has two Korean players, one of which is very respected by the fans because he plays well.
Here is what Advocaat meant, in my own words: He might want to buy a black player in the future and he wants to make sure by checking directly with fans that such a player would be accepted by fans. This is not because "fans don't like black players" as Daily lied and you repeated (Advocaat never said that), but because some fans "pay attention to skin color". Since Zenit has never attempted to buy a black player, Advocaat does not know what this attention means. He wants to evaluate this attention, this is it.
I am clueless on how Daily or you could find Zenit fans "racist" from the Advocaat's interview. The word "negro" does not have any negative connotation in Russian, not sure about English. The fact that a person asked a question about Valbuena also did not mean that this person was a racist. That was just a question. If I would ask you whether you eat meat would you derive or not from my question that I am vegeterian?
So, leave your russophobic opinions to yourself. And throw you journalist diploma to a garbage can.
Frankly, I hope that you once will get sued for your provoking lies and will have to pay a significant compensation and/or spend some time in prison.
from 2 months ago
Take a pill and chill Nikolai....getting too excited.
The exact words or dark-skinned or back or whatever......
Anyone can tell that even if Andrew is not 100% deadly accurate...the fact is there was some race talk...and that really has no place in the modern world.
Though I do agree with you that for a Brit to tell you these things is a little like `Pot calling Kettle black`.
No pun intended..heh
2 months ago
There was "some race talk" - so what? There were no negative connotations in it whatsoever. But you, S, surely may think differently - it is easy, and you can stay chilled. Such easy position has place in the modern world.
However, as I see it: The Daily lied, Andrew repeated and added his own lies. From these combined lies, he developed a theory on racism among Zenit fans, which he presented to the public. His bright text was read by almost eight hundred people. Andrew was praised for it and accepted the praise. Instead of widely publishing his apologies, Andrew still persists in his lies anbd theory. How can anyone have any respect for Andrew?
I repeat, Andrew's article is nothing, but an insult to millions of Zenit fans, and it does nothing, but disseminates Russophobia.
Oh, he is a Rangers fan and he claims that his text is not intentionally russophobic. This should help.
from 2 months ago
I have replied to your post below.
2 months ago
Point taken.
I don`t know what to tell you.
This site is loaded with opinion.
Most of it is utter garbage where Brits mentally mastubate each other going on about their dillusions of grandeur all the time excluding those who really dominate the sport.
I read offensive lies everyday. Figure all you can do is exactly what you are doing right now and print your side. Try to use many facts and statistics to back your ideas and people come around.
There`s been an evolution....the link EPL was changed to FIFA.
I think in your specific case you must write an article stating your case.Convince me and others.
Good luck.
2 months ago
S, I do not see any reason to waste anyone's time on studying this subject deeply. I also believe that publishing my own article on a Russian website would only instigate rage in other Zenit fans against Andrew, the Daily, the Telegraph and Brits in general, so I won't do it. Likewise, publishing anything on UK websites would have only a small effect, because their readers refuse Russians the right to defend themselves, as I've seen many times in case of anti-Russian political accusations. For myself, I had to find out whether Andrew has any remains of brains and conscience. In this sense, my posts were just an experiment. Usually I do not participate in internet discussions, this is only the third time in five years. But here I had to participate, because Andrew's lies are obvious, he clearly added wrongs to the Daily article. So my conclusion about Andrew is the one I have already publised above. What I really could do, and have done, was to complain to Zenit about the Andrew, Daily and Telegraph defamation and hope that Zenit will pursue a legal action against these parties on behalf of fans and Advocaat.
2 months ago
'black players on numerous occasions' should be 'a player of colour'. I will change that for you but I stand by my article until such a time as the Daily Record retracts the article I got my information from.
2 months ago
Who is that player of color? The Daily article does not mention even one.
from 2 months ago
I've decided to withdraw that statement not because I don't believe it to be true but as I believe it to be the ethical thing to do. I apologize for having not looked deeply enough into it but we are not a newspaper but a group of football fans writing down our thoughts.
Thank you Nikolai for bring this to my attention.
The rest of the article though is just my opinion.
2 months ago
When Advocaat tried to sign Frenchman Mathieu Valbuena recently, the first question on fans' websites was: "Is he a negro?" as written in the Daily Record.
It doesn't explain why they cared if he was a negro?....Why would Advocaat make so many coloured remarks about players?
I have made up my own mind after reading the article...my mind is not set in stone and is open to all further information.
2 months ago
Andrew - wouldn't it make it easier if you provided a link to that article in the daily Record ( If its possible). It would clear up whether you quoted correct or not. If it turns out that you indeed did quote correctly, then this Nikolai person has no choice but to apologise and pursue his mission in clearing Zenit's name by taking it up with Daily Record themselves....
from 2 months ago
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football-news/international-football/2008/04/26/racist-fans-won-t-let-me-sign-a-black-player-admits-dick-advocaat-86908-20395349/
No problem Salomon.
from 2 months ago
So Salomon, what do you think of Andrew's quoting technique?
2 months ago
The first question you refer to was on one website, not on fans' websites, in the interview. It might be asked by a single fan and only once, just because of interest. Why did you make your own mind the way you did?
In any case, there were publications why the Valbuena transfer did not go through, they did not mention his race and fans position regarding his race at all.
Further, why are you still putting your thoughts into Advocaat's mouth? Could not you write something like "Advocaat needs black players to improve his squad, but in my opinion, the clubs fans to reject the notion outright as they don't want black players at their club" instead of "Advocaat, ... claims that he needs black players to improve his squad but the clubs fans to reject the notion outright as they don't want black players at their club! "?
Why would Advocaat would plan a meeting with fans then if he already knew their reaction?
So far I stand by my words that your article presents an example of defamation.
And your reliance on Daily Record is chilidish and regretful. I warned you that the phrase "the fans don't like black players" is not from the original interview and presented you the original. Since then you can't morally and probably legally use this phrase for defamation purposes unless you make sure that the Daily version is correct.
2 months ago
Nikolai, this is not a reporting website but one about debate. As I have said countless times you are entitled to your opinion and I have heard it. I've made changes to the original article to accomodate you.
How do you know the one you say is the original is not been cut or edited? But let's leave it there. We have both said our piece.
I can only say again this is a debating site where we write our views upon what we see with our own eyes and READ IN THE PAPERS.
2 months ago
Even if the interview I referred you to was cut or edited, that was what the interviewer has distributed. If you think that Daily has another version, ask them, they will surely help you in your argument with me.
My goal was not that you would change the article to accomodate me, but that you would try to restore for the harm you have done by exposing your insulting lies about Advocaat's interview and Zenit fans to about eight hundred people. The fact that you changed your article confirms that originally you based your racial theory on lies. And the removal of some of these lies is insufficient. Now you almost have no facts to keep you theory alive, so you base it only on the Daily's lie "the fans don't like black players". And you still keep your conclusion that "Zenit seem set on being Russia's premier all star 'white' football team" despite that you know that they have two Koreans.
Your article does not relate to debate, it is an example of defamation or libel. I hope you will be sued for this some time.
2 months ago
Big respect Nikolai got to say you have hit the nail on the head big time Andrew seems to have a short memory about racial issues not to long ago all of celtics black players were subjected to monkey noises and other racial insults from his beloved rangers fans as for the daily check out most of their reports on celtic lies lies lies.
2 months ago
Hi,
Wonderful to see that Rangers have learned and went through a healing process. I am impressed. Only thing is, they are still singing bigoted songs like this only a few weeks ago.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=975ksUA6dqQ
("The famine is over, why don't you go home")
Or is this also Celtic lies?
about 1 month ago
zenit has racist fans...are u denying that nikolai?
about 1 month ago
here are some other newspapers implying that zenit fans are racist:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/05/03/sfnzen103.xml http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/football/Racism-blights-the-boomtime.4071442.jp http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=681775
Instead of arguing semantics of the english language can you present your case as to why zenit fans are not racist? There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that zenit fans are racist including being the only team in russia to not have EVER fielded a black player.
from about 1 month ago
Davis:
1. Regarding your newspapers, they just copy each other and multiply lies, exactly how Andrew did. Please see the comments for example on the Telegraph website, I am copying them here for you:
Comments
Well, Mr. Will Stewart is just a pathetic lies-spredder. And he is doing that just to push some stupid brainwashing scoop into media before the final. Advocaat did not ever said anything like that. Zenith has players from all over the world in the line up - from Argentina to Korea. Zenith fans would never go against a brasilian player in the team, if he is a top class and can be usefull. The next thing for Will Stewart to do, is to write the scoop about Rangers being a racist team, cause they don't have any russian players in the line up. Come on, do it Will! Those fake lies are just your bread and butter!
Posted by Walcott_Wizard on May 3, 2008 4:05 PM
Report this comment
this is lie.... he didn't said so...as I read interview....
Posted by HHHH on May 3, 2008 3:10 PM
So, my question to you in light of these comments and the facts about the interview written by me above: should in ideal case the author of the Telegraph's article be fined or go to prison for presenting his words as Advocaat's words and for lying about a body of Zenit fans? Please see English or Scottish defamation law practice. Just assume that I am right because I read what was presented as original interview. You, I assume, did not read it - learning foreign language is so hard, isn't it, and you prefer an easy way?
2. Regarding your request to present your case as to why zenit fans are not racist. It is obvious that most of them are not racist and some are racists. This is as probably everywhere.
Your example regarding Zenit having no black players is obviously stupid. Do you have Lada (its a brand of a car) in your garage? I bet, you don't. Does it mean that you are from anti-Lada club. I bet, no. You just didn't have money and/or reason to buy it. Possibly, because you thought that other cars will better suit you.
I mean, I herein deny that Zenit so far have had a policy of not signing black players. Their selection process is based on tens of factors. They signed two Koreans and a Turk without any problem.
about 1 month ago
Take it davis your a Rangers fan?took you lot over 100 years to field a what do you call them again fenian taigs aint that right????
about 1 month ago
i hate football...just trying to point out the obvious..
about 1 month ago
People, get real!
I am a Celtic guy myself, and I actually liked to see Zenit smash the Germans twice, showing some great football. I suppose that time come, I will probably hope for them to win the cup.
Nevertheless, St. Petersburg is one of the most racist cities in the world, students I know speak of the terror and anxiety they experienced as a daily matter, just because they're coloured. Black Students have been murdered several times by racist gangs, the town is full of sprayed slogans against foreigners, jews and blacks. Zenit's supporters have abused players of other teams racially in the Zenit - Villareal and the Zenit - Olympic Marseille games and the club was fined by UEFA. In both cases, the club only "accepted the fines" (official website) without explaining why, whereas untolerable situation on the same page is the result of more expansive charter flights. That shows me, the club doesn't take the racial abuse- matter seriously enough.
So on the whole, I don't see, Nikolai, what you have to complain about. Nothing Andrew said contradicts the facts - only the way he put it is not ok- but what do you do? Everybody else is wrong and is guilty of Russophobia (come on!) - that's the easy way. How about doing something about racists among fellow Zenit supporters? An action of some kind to show (us and them) you and the majority of football fans are against it?
And no, 'negro' is not okay. Not in English, not in any other language. I heard similar words for Russians, you wouldn't like them either, and I also think they're wrong. If you believe " 'negro' does not have any negative connotation in Russian" you are either naiv or things are worse than I thought.
And btw, showing respect for a football player shouldn't depend on playing well. Respect is something we all earned, unless we did something realy wrong.
No offence meant, no hard feelings
about 1 month ago
People, get real!
I am a Celtic guy myself, and I actually liked to see Zenit smash the Germans twice, showing some great football. I suppose that time come, I will probably hope for them to win the cup.
Nevertheless, St. Petersburg is one of the most racist cities in the world, students I know speak of the terror and anxiety they experienced as a daily matter, just because they're coloured. Black Students have been murdered several times by racist gangs, the town is full of sprayed slogans against foreigners, jews and blacks. Zenit's supporters have abused players of other teams racially in the Zenit - Villareal and the Zenit - Olympic Marseille games and the club was fined by UEFA. In both cases, the club only "accepted the fines" (official website) without explaining why, whereas untolerable situation on the same page is the result of more expansive charter flights. That shows me, the club doesn't take the racial abuse- matter seriously enough.
So on the whole, I don't see, Nikolai, what you have to complain about. Nothing Andrew said contradicts the facts - only the way he put it is not ok- but what do you do? Everybody else is wrong and is guilty of Russophobia (come on!) - that's the easy way. How about doing something about racists among fellow Zenit supporters? An action of some kind to show (us and them) you and the majority of football fans are against it?
And no, 'negro' is not okay. Not in English, not in any other language. I heard similar words for Russians, you wouldn't like them either, and I also think they're wrong. If you believe " 'negro' does not have any negative connotation in Russian" you are either naiv or things are worse than I thought.
And btw, showing respect for a football player shouldn't depend on playing well. Respect is something we all earned, unless we did something realy wrong.
No offence meant, no hard feelings
from about 1 month ago
Davis:
1. Regarding your newspapers, they just copy each other and multiply lies, exactly how Andrew did. Please see the comments for example on the Telegraph website, I am copying them here for you:
Comments
Well, Mr. Will Stewart is just a pathetic lies-spredder. And he is doing that just to push some stupid brainwashing scoop into media before the final. Advocaat did not ever said anything like that. Zenith has players from all over the world in the line up - from Argentina to Korea. Zenith fans would never go against a brasilian player in the team, if he is a top class and can be usefull. The next thing for Will Stewart to do, is to write the scoop about Rangers being a racist team, cause they don't have any russian players in the line up. Come on, do it Will! Those fake lies are just your bread and butter!
Posted by Walcott_Wizard on May 3, 2008 4:05 PM
Report this comment
this is lie.... he didn't said so...as I read interview....
Posted by HHHH on May 3, 2008 3:10 PM
So, my question to you in light of these comments and the facts about the interview written by me above: should in ideal case the author of the Telegraph's article be fined or go to prison for presenting his words as Advocaat's words and for lying about a body of Zenit fans? Please see English or Scottish defamation law practice. Just assume that I am right because I read what was presented as original interview. You, I assume, did not read it - learning foreign language is so hard, isn't it, and you prefer an easy way?
2. Regarding your request to present your case as to why zenit fans are not racist. It is obvious that most of them are not racist and some are racists. This is as probably everywhere.
Your example regarding Zenit having no black players is obviously stupid. Do you have Lada (its a brand of a car) in your garage? I bet, you don't. Does it mean that you are from anti-Lada club. I bet, no. You just didn't have money and/or reason to buy it. Possibly, because you thought that other cars will better suit you.
I mean, I herein deny that Zenit so far have had a policy of not signing black players. Their selection process is based on tens of factors. They signed two Koreans and a Turk without any problem.
Allon: your post is not so well thought. Regarding negro: I just don't know what's offensive in English. I didn't use the dictionary because this particular word seemed to me not offensive based on what I remember from my US experience. I guess not all English speakers think that word negro is offensive. Russian is my native language, word "negr" is totally fine in Russian.
Regarding respect: you don't know to read. I wrote: "And Zenit has two Korean players, one of which is VERY respected by the fans because he plays well." I didn't write anything about the other, in particular that he is not respcted. Today I read an opinion that he is good, but doesn't fit the team, so Zenit should sell his contract.
Regarding St. Petersburg: there were and probably are several racist gangs. Slogans - didn't see them today. Jews are not scared these days, many return from Israel. Google this issue or for example name Anton Nosik. England is not less antisemitic in average. If you disagree, present your case.
Regarding Andrew: he is a liar and he lies to benefit from it. This was proven by my above comments and by his inactivity after his lies were discovered.
Regarding Russophobia: antiracial warnings made by English police officials were taken as an offence and threat by many; in particular many people are concerned that English police is preparing an excuse for harsh measures and weigh this factor in their decision to go or not to go to the final. Read the relevant forums in Russian. Despite that the statement of police is clear, people somehow believe that English authorities are biased against them. I guess, British press and government has done much recently to provoke these feelings. I didn't write that Andrew is Russophobic, I wrote that he disseminates Russophobia. Why on Earth he appealed to Medvedev? Should I appeal to the Queen or Prime Minister?
The last: why don't you organaize an anti-russophobic march with your friends? Just with a goal to make British press not to make up "the facts"?
about 1 month ago
how pathetic. you british fans can't get over the fact that rangers didn't deserve to get to the final while zenit steam rolled through teams like bayer marseille villareal and bayern. and all you can come up with is calling the fans racist. ugh, be a little more creative. why would they need to sign a black player when this squad won the russian premier league and got to the uefa cup final?? i'm russian and all i can say is good luck in the final, the rangers really don't stand a chance against zenit
about 1 month ago
Hi,
Once again I repeat....
The Rangers fans are going to sing this song tomorrow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=975ksUA6dqQ
It is bigoted nonsense. Sounds like them and Zenit deserve each other. Two ugly teams.
about 1 month ago
so u are trying to equate my not having a Lada with zenit not signing a black player..Hmm..strange logic u are trying to employ...i may not be interested in a lada but i would like to buy a BLACK volga coupe from 1957...GET IT?
So are you saying they can't find a better black or dark skinned player than the foreigners that they have currently? Fatih Tekke (cost 12 million Euro) has been a bust and Lee Ho does not play much....So ur telling me that for 12 million euro they couldn't sign a player like Jo or Daniel Carvalho (who play for CSKA)? Or try to recruit a young player like that from Brazil...Almost all Russian 1st and 2nd division teams have black players...I guess its just coincidence that zenit has NEVER had a black or dark skinned player...My what coincidence..
about 1 month ago
Nikolai, you sound like an apologist for what I’m sure is the racist minority of Zenit fans and inhabitants of St. Petersburg.
You don’t appear to have any concept of why most right minded people would think it strange that on hearing you are considering the purchase of a new player someone asks on a fans forum, “is he a negro?” I guarantee you that if my team, Arsenal, where to sign an unknown player from a country like Brazil for example nowhere on any of the fans forums would such a question be posted. There would be lots of questions such as, “is he a good player?” or “is he an attacking player or a defender?” but none concerning his race.
The fact that you somehow find this question acceptable, even if asked by only one person, reveals that you think the question is a valid one. What does it matter if he is black (which is the preferred term for your information) surely his level of skill and ability and benefit to the team are all more pertinent questions for fans of the club?
Please stop trying to accuse the media of Russiaphobia, as a black person I have no problem with people of any nationality, colour, race or creed. But from what I have read in the press in general not only concerning football and this particular story some parts of the former Soviet Union seem to have a problem with black people. I am sure it is a small minority of people but they exist and you are disingenuous to deny their existence and accuse anyone reporting the fact of disseminating Russiaphobia.
Your analogy of owning the Lada car is contemptuous. I would suggest people don’t own Lada’s because they are not a better motor vehicle than the one they currently own or can afford to purchase. If you take your analogy to its conclusion what you are suggesting is that there is no black player in world football that is better or could improve your team? I think most people would find that a ludicrous suggestion.
And please understand that having an Asian player or Turk in your team is not the same as having a black person in your team. There is a special hatred shared by some people towards blacks based on history, pseudo science and culture amongst many other factors. Please don’t insult my intelligence by suggesting having a Korean player proves that the football club has no policy of not signing black players… Asian is not Black.
from about 1 month ago
Black people are very rare in St. Petersburg. When I was younger than 5-6 and would see a black person in the city, I would cry out loud about this to my Dad or Mom, because I would be very excited. I must say, positively excited. Not because I wanted black people in my city, but because it was a new experience. It is well possible that the question on the website was asked by someone like me excited, or, keeping in mind the age difference, just interested. Alternatively, it could be asked by a gang member or a single racist. What I can't understand, is why you choose the racist version over the other, and call me an apologist. Do you accuse people by default and count them not only after they prove it?
Regarding gangs in St. Petersburg: if there would be many gangs here, there would be no black people at all in St. Petersburg, because they all would be hunted down in few days. However, there are blacks in St. Petersburg, many of them living since birth or for years while receiving their degrees. Looks like contradiction, doesn't it? So there may be only few gangs here, much less than the number of blacks. Why and how should I know how many of them exist presently? I therefore wrote that there are probably several gangs.
By the way, with your logic, you probably now think that I didn't want black people in the city (see, I wrote above "Not because I wanted black people in my city..." and you have very special rules of implication). If this is the case, I stress that I didn't and don't care at all about whether there are or whether there are no blacks in the city. I am not biased and prefer to receive resumes that don't state personal data, such as age, family status, and so on, contrary to Russian and some European (e.g. German and French) practices. I am sorry, but I would not hire a black person just to prove potential accusers that I am not a racist.
By the way, many international companies ask applicants about the skin color in job applications; they just collect statistics and "not use the answers in the hiring decision". But they ask - does it mean they are racist?
Oh, and why did you make a point that you are black? Do you think this info is interesting?
To Zenit transfers and Ladas: Fatih Tekke and the Koreans came in 2006, after Gazprom started to invest in St. Petersburg and Advocaat came. In nineties captain Radimov, under Sadyrin, did not have money for an extra pair of boots, so he used the same independently on weather. Now count years and managers who could buy black players. It looks like only Petrzhela might sign a black, but he brought inexperienced and inexpensive Slavs whom he knew from central Europe (Sktrel, Sirl, Krizanac and others). Then, Advocaat bought two Russians this year partially because they had to care about limit on foreigners in Zenit. The first black player came to Russia I think in 1997 (Robson, Spartak). For several years he was the only one black, but I may not remember this correctly, because I never cared. You see, we drove our own Ladas for the most of the past ten years, especially in St. Petersburg, when compared with Moscow.
Regarding your intelligence: you ought to go to logics course, really. See below why.
Andrew wrote: "I'd understand if he suggested a few fans or minority group but he did not as far as I'm aware do so. Therefore I feel my article is valid."
I wrote: ""Regarding St. Petersburg: there were and probably are several racist gangs."
And you wrote: "I am sure it is a small minority of people but they exist and you are disingenuous to deny their existence and accuse anyone reporting the fact of disseminating Russiaphobia". You also wrote "... what I’m sure is the racist minority of Zenit fans and inhabitants of St. Petersburg".
First, where did I DENY the gangs existence? To the contrary, I said that they existed and suggested that they exist. Can't you read?
Second, I bet, you have read comments above (I actually hope you can read). It is clear from them, that Andrew made up the facts. He even admitted this and changed the article in several places. I was not satisfied though, because these changes were insufficient: some lies are still in the article, for example regarding Advocaat's interview and "white" team, and he didn't advertize the fact that he corrected the article as widely as he distributed the article itself.
Now, questions: (1) whom did you call "a reporter of facts"? Andrew? I can't believe it.
(2) Why, Andrew's "facts", disguised as Advocaat's words and accusing rather the majority of fans, are different from your facts, accusing only minority of fans? Why don't you ask him to correct his facts?
(3) Why Andrew's article does not disseminate Russiaphobia by making such universal conclusions while being based on wrong facts?
Finally, don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that Zenit would have a separate transfer policies for blacks and for Koreans and that Zenit hiring managers would carry special hatred towards blacks based on history, pseudo science and culture amongst many other factors. Instead, consider that many people here have read the "Uncle Tom's cabin", despite that it related to a different part of the world. And esteem Russia and Orthodox church for prohibiting black slavery within its vast territory. Lastly, don't insult me by calling me "an apologist for the racist minority".
about 1 month ago
I usually never reply to these blogs because usually the responses become so hateful here in Scotland following Editorials in broadsheets such as The Herald & Scotsman it drives you to despair that people think along such small minded and hateful lines. Even rugby blogs here you can see the distaste of some foreign teams. Media/Police & Government largely ignore it
But it is good to see some intelligent Banter instead of reverting to Sectarian Bile, and as an London Irishman living in Glasgow it is refreshing to see.
Sectarianism/Racism is unacceptable in any form.
I am a Fulham supporter.
I do take great offence to the Famine song as an Irishman not as a football fan
about 1 month ago
Some black players have a strong resume(as you explain) and could play for many teams. So why wouldn't they be interested...Go to the brazilian first division and there are many players that could be bought for 12-15 million eur...GREAT PLAYERS....Maybe the administration at Zenit doesn't want black players because it could upset some of the ultra fans...That sounds logical...A lot more logical than your apologist argument...
about 1 month ago
May be you a killed a man, because your arguments are amazingly stupid. You are a murderer, if not a pedophile. In fact, why wouldn't you be a pedophile? Yep, this sounds logical. A lot more logical than Zenit caring about ultras.
about 1 month ago
Nikolai,
You wrote a long response to my questions but in the end said nothing. I was a little disappointed as I was looking forward to a good debate.
The one unequivocal fact you cannot or refuse to explain with any logic is why has Zenit never signed or fielded a black player considering, as you state, the first black player came into the league in 2006?
Your childhood memoirs where very interesting but added nothing to this debate. Your explanation of the forum question did make the smile. The person asked the question because he /she was so excited at the possible thought of a black player joining the club they just had to find out! Neither you nor I can ever know what was in that persons mind, you have your opinion on why the question was asked and I have mine.
I was not debating with you if there are gangs or racists in St. Petersburg or not, I believe racists can be found in every corner of the globe, in every city in every country. Whites are bigoted against blacks and other races, blacks are bigoted against whites and other races, others kill over religion and class. There is no monopoly on ignorance and stupidity. I can’t recall asking you if you liked black people or wanted them in your city so why you feel the need to tell me I am not sure? I mentioned that I was black so you would appreciate that I am speaking from a black person’s perspective. Believe it or not I think I would be more aware of insidious racism than you may be having experienced it firsthand. This may be an unimaginable concept for you to grasp but it’s true.
It was interesting to hear that the Russian Orthodox Church prohibited slavery within its territory; I have no previous knowledge of this church and take you at your word that this is the case. However the question occurs to me, does the church in Russia have the power to make criminal laws? If not then what is the point of your comment other than it’s an interesting fact? Let’s use the USA as an example, The declaration of emancipation was signed in 1862, this legislation outlawed slavery and made all slaves free, however it wasn’t until 1964 that the civil rights act was signed into law, this law ended segregation and lawful discrimination against American blacks which gave them ‘real’ freedom. The church’s stance on the issue of slavery and discrimination during those interim years was no doubt against slavery but it still existed and was accepted in large sections of society.
All this is however an irrelevance because as previously stated you didn’t answer the point in question. The Newspaper article implied that the Zenit coach was cautious about signing black players for fear of the reaction of a sizeable section of the supporters. If it was a small minority of supporters the coach wouldn’t care, he would sign the players he wanted, irrespective of their race, and the issue would never have come to light. Zenit have never fielded a black player that is a fact. So Nicolai are you telling us that it is pure coincidence that Zenit have never had a black player but they have no policy of discrimination towards black players? Are you telling us that there will be no problem if the club signed a couple of black players for the coming season? Are you telling us that the press reports from the recent European game against a team containing black players where bananas were thrown and monkey chants sang from the stands are all fabricated to make Zenit and indeed Russia look bad?
from about 1 month ago
-- "The one unequivocal fact you cannot or refuse to explain with any logic is why has Zenit never signed or fielded a black player considering, as you state, the first black player came into the league in 2006? " -- I wrote 1997, learn to read. I forgot to mention that Zenit bought white-skinned Lombaerts and Gubochan last yeat and this year. That's because Advocaat, not fans, chose them.
Regarding logic: you just didn't accept mine, that managers had their preferences not based on skin color. Now I have another. Why do you want to send black players to Zenit? You don't want them around you? May be you are a racist and wrote that you are black ahead of time only to preclude this suspicion?
-- "I can’t recall asking you if you liked black people or wanted them in your city so why you feel the need to tell me I am not sure?" -- Because you had problems with logic on which I pointed ealier: you reach conclusions while not having facts and you are obviously biased against Zenit and me and for Andrew. Why didn't you answer questions (1), (2) and (3) I asked you? Only you have a monopoly to ask questions?
-- "So Nicolai are you telling us that it is pure coincidence that Zenit have never had a black player but they have no policy of discrimination towards black players?" -- Nikolai, with "k" in the middle, learn to read. Surely, there is no policy. Like there is no policy in CSKA to buy one black Brazilian after another black Brazilian, although this is what they do.
-- Are you telling us that there will be no problem if the club signed a couple of black players for the coming season? -- Yes, no problem.
Also see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/scotland/article3927792.ece
"“What I said before was, if they [the Zenit fans] make an issue of it, then don’t do it. It is not an issue now at Zenit.”
When pressed about what he had said about being unable to sign black players for Zenit, Advocaat retorted: “No, I didn’t say that!”
As far as I know, Uefa so received an explanation from Zenit that reporters' translation into English was incorrect, that what I was saying all the time.
See also http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/may/14/uefa.zenitstpetersburg
"The club, who are owned by the Russian state energy giant Gazprom, deny having an all-white policy and say their first team is made up of different nationalities and includes two South Koreans. They also have a black Russian-born player in their reserve squad. "
-- Are you telling us that the press reports from the recent European game against a team containing black players where bananas were thrown and monkey chants sang from the stands are all fabricated to make Zenit and indeed Russia look bad? -- No, this is not unlikely, but the questions are how many people participated and whether those fans would go anywhere beyond verbal abuse? I would like to know this info myself. This is my prediction what will happen if Zenit signs a black player: relatively few Zenit racist fans might occasionally verbally abuse black players from other clubs, but that's nearly impossible that they would abuse a Zenit player. From time to time such fans would be punished.
My stance on Orthodox church was aimed to explain you that we have very few blacks in St. Petersburg.
My question (4) to you. What will you say, in view of the above links, about Russia-loving Rangers fans, like Andrew, and British officials, who either participated in anti-Zenit media campaign or attacked disturbed Zenit fans and players?
http://football.uk.reuters.com/uefacup/news/L1472648.php
"Goalkeeper Vyacheslav Malafeev said the team were woken up by a middle-of-the-night fire alarm on the eve of their 2-0 victory over Rangers at the City of Manchester stadium.
"At 12 o'clock (midnight) the alarm went off, everyone ran out of their rooms, we thought we were on fire," a smiling Malafeev told reporters while he clutched the large trophy.
"But then they explained that it was three Glasgow fans who had set off the alarm on the third floor.""
From somewhere else:
"A Russian fan was taken to hospital after being stabbed outside the City of Manchester Stadium before the game. The man was stabbed in the back but his injuries were reported as non-life threatening. "
I know that more attacks, not involving stabbing, were reported in Russian media.
"When your own Security Manager, is sympathetic to the plight of the poor fans who attempted to maim a Russian fan celebrating one of the biggest accomplishments in Russian Football history. You know you have a problem. " - someone here on bleachreport
- IMHO, all these incidents have happened because British officials concentrated on warning Zenit fans rather than Rangers fans.
about 1 month ago
My apologies Nikolai with a “K” for spelling your name wrongly, your, “can’t you read?” response was a little childish in my humble opinion as clearly reading is not the issue, spelling foreign names appears to be my problem!
I thank you for finally giving us your opinion on the actual issue being debated. So in synopsis you don’t believe that Zenit have an “all white” policy concerning transfers. And you believe that if they were to sign a black player then the player may be abused by a small minority of the fans but these fans would eventually be punished, although it’s not clear who you feel would punish these racist fans.
Well if what you say is true, and I have no reason to doubt your word, we should see if and when this Russian born black player you spoke of is playing for the Zenit first team. My personal opinion is that this player will not be picked for the first team but I hope I am proved wrong.
As for your comment regarding, “sending black players to Zenit”, slavery is dead Nikolai, blacks aren’t sent anywhere anymore. There is a pool of black professional football players in the world who, like their white and Asian counterparts, would like to be employed based on their character and football ability, not their colour. It's not a difficult concept to grasp Nikolai.
Just so that you know Nikolai, I am a black person and I have no bias against Russians or Zenit as a football club. I have a friend, also black, who dated a Russian lady for some time and went to Russia with her because he was interested in seeing her homeland. While there he was treated very badly by some of the locals. But even so I do not regard all Russians as racist because of the actions of a small minority of people. I take people at face value and I would expect people to show me the same courtesy.
With regards to the events in Manchester I totally condemn the violent actions of the so called fans whichever team they claim to follow. I hope the Zenit fan who was stabbed is not too seriously injured and my thoughts are with him and his family.
about 1 month ago
You were so persistent in trying call Zenit a racist club without reason or make them sign a black player that it looked like black racism. Accordingly, I used word "send" when modeled your thinking, though exposed you as white racist, because that's in what you so easily accuse people.
"I thank you for finally giving us your opinion on the actual issue being debated." - If you speak about my predictions, then this question was never debated. If you speak about policy, then I gave my opinion two days ago, see "I herein deny that Zenit so far have had a policy of not signing black players" - you didn't have to wait that long, just could read it.
Surely, my questions (1), (2), and (3) are left unanswered.
about 1 month ago
To be honest I don’t understand what you are trying to say in your first paragraph. Please explain the term “black racism” because I don’t understand. You then go on to say something about exposing me as a “white racist”? I’m confused. And Nikolai, I did not accuse “people” of being racist, I accused the owners and some of the fans of Zenit football club of being racist. My accusation was targeted and was not a generalisation about “people” in general or Russians in particular so please don’t put words into mouth.
Now to answer your questions…
1. When I refered to ‘facts’ I based them not only on this reported posted by Andrew but on stories that where printed in the UK press over the last few days. This site is not my only source of information.
2. The facts as stated by Andrew are not MY opinions they are his and he is entitled to them as I am to mine. The ‘facts’ as you call them can never be known fully. Advocaat’s interview apparently was given to a foreign journalist who reported what he had been told in his second language. Advocaat now claims that the journalist miss translated or miss interpreted what he had said and denies that he said there was an issue signing black players. So in the end it is his word against the journalist and it is the readers prerogative who he believes. Just as in legal proceedings the defense and prosecution give there sides of the story and the jury has to decide who they believe.
3. After reading Andrews article I didn’t get the impression he was being “Russia-phobic”. I had the impression that his distain was towards Zenit as a football club and their fans for their alleged racism.
I think perhaps you are being a little over sensitive Nikolai. To criticise a section of people who happen to be Russian is not a slight on ALL Russians and is in no way Russiaphobia.
about 1 month ago
It's funny how many journalists have commented on this issue without knowing about the issues involved. Practically none of them has read the Russian version of Advocaat's interview, for example. These lazy hacks have never even been to a Russian game, and yet somehow they feel qualified to comment on it. Yes, Zenit has racist fans. Yes, they should be condemned. But they are in a minority. Anyone would think that the Petrovsky was like a lynch mob on match days. That is not so. Zenit have some of the most loyal and passionate fans in Russia. Any club would be proud to have them (the racist minority apart). It is true that racism is a problem in Russia (but not just there). However -and this is not meant as a justification of the racism- such incidents were common in Britain when the first black players started playing around the turn of the 1980s. Russia, in terms of its multicultural development (if I can put it that way) is way behind where the UK was even then. To take an example: I live in Moscow, and you can go for days -literally- without seeing a black face here. In London, you go on the Tube, and half the carriage will be speaking in a language other than English. In Russia, practically the entire train will be speaking in Russian. In St Petersburg, the situation is similar. There are a few black students, and that's basically it. Given that racism still exists in Britain, it is hardly surprising that it exists in Russia too.
Another thing: when players are bought, the club wants to make sure that they will be happy in the local environment. You can see this happening in Britain, where London is a popular destination for foreign players due to its cosmopolitan nature and international connections. Russia, particularly if you don't speak Russian, is a very difficult place to come to. The culture is different. The food is different. The language is different. Even the alphabet is different. In Saint Petersburg, the weather is generally dank and dismal, and in the winter there's barely any sunlight (in midsummer, by contrast, there's barely any night). Now, I'm not saying black players couldn't adapt to this, but it's worth bearing in mind that Zenit have never signed any British, French, German, Italian or Spanish players either before you start claiming that their transfer policy is racist. Even Dominguez was signed from Rubin Kazan, so he was already used to playing in Russia.
Zenit's transfer policy has won them the Russian league and the UEFA Cup. You buy players because they fit into the team, not to give it a racial balance. I don't see why they should apologise for it (even if I do think they could do with another striker, and at least one more defender).
Two more points crossed my mind: there are a fair number of people living in Britain of ascent descent. Lots of them have grown up playing football. Yet hardly anyone from an Indian, Chinese or Pakistani background plays in the English football league. Does this mean all the clubs are racist, or have a policy of not signing such players? And another thing: when Celtic won the European Cup in 1967, they famously did so with a team of players all born within a 30-mile radius of Celtic Park. This achievement is rightly a source of immense pride for Celtic fans, and nobody calls them racist for emphasing the fact. But when Zenit fans show extra pride in the fact that many of their players are Russian, if not from the St Petersburg itself, they are labelled racist.
about 1 month ago
ascent = Asian (!)
about 1 month ago
What Dima said is correct also in my opinion.
Axel:
2. " Advocaat now claims that the journalist miss translated or miss interpreted what he had said and denies that he said there was an issue signing black players. So in the end it is his word against the journalist and it is the readers prerogative who he believes." - you really have a problem with reading comprehension. The journalist, who took the interview, has never claimed that Advocaat told him in the interview that there was an issue signing black players. Indeed, this interview is published at sports.ru , see the link above. The phrase "Zenit fans don't like black players" and other unconditional statements appeared only in British "reports" about the interview, and for this reason I joined this debate, i.e. because the reports contradicted the intrview record. For everyone, who did some effort to read the interview, it's not Advocaat's word against interviewer's word, but British media words against Advocaat's word and the interviewer's record.
1. You still didn't answer this question. I reword it: why do you choose to debate the issue of racism in Zenit with me rather than the issue of incorrect reporting on racism with Andrew and other British reporters? I showed you above, where I asked my questions for the first time, that your facts differ more from Andrew's facts than from my facts. Andrew accused virtually all fans, i.e. millions, you and I agreed that there are only some. Shouldn't you be angry at the British media provocative exaggeration more than at Zenit discrimination policy, even if the latter existed? The British media exaggeration zombies blacks by saying them that they are hated my millions in St. Peterburg, while they could be hated only by few.
3. IMHO, the ways, in which British media and authorities "mistranslated" the Advocaat's interview record, interpreted the website question and the absence of black players in Zenit, and warned Zenit fans, all these ways look racist with bias against Russians. Regretfully, you also chose to trust the "mistranslations" instead of checking the interview record, and interpret any doubt against Zenit officials, despite that you were warned about "misinterpreatations" and recieved some explanations on situation in St. Petersburg. This made me suspect you in Russophobia or black racism (i.e. racism aganist whites) as well.
Finally, after events in Manchester, which team doesn't desreve Europe, is closer to booking, and which fans should have been warned to watch their behavior?
about 1 month ago
I want to add, that imho there is an important difference between racism in Britain / USA and Russia, at least when its turned against blacks. In Russia "racists" almost always do not have any idea or experience with blacks, if they see a black, that's only on a stadium or on TV. If they would meet a black, they would easily befriend him or her. This certainly does not relate to gang members, which number is really small, but they can be very active. In Britain/US "educated" racism is much more frequent.
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