As I sat on my couch last night, watching the Cavs and the Wizards, I could not help but notice just how much the NBA has changed over the last 20 years. The first two games of the 2008 playoffs resembled the Knicks-Bulls and Bulls-Pistons series in the late 80s and 90s.
The difference: no one in those series received flagrant fouls or was ejected.
The one play that led me to this conclusion happened in the third quarter, when LeBron James was pushed by Brendan Haywood on a layup attempt. Haywood was hit with a flagrant-two and ejected from the game.
He could end up being suspended, and possibly fined for it as well. LeBron spent a post-game interview whining about it, calling it "non-basketball play."
After the play happened and Haywood was ejected, it dawned on me that the epic battles and hard fouls that I grew up watching with the Knicks, Bulls, and Pistons were now officially history.
Seriously, did you hear M.J. complain about the physical nature of those series? Was anyone tossed or called for flagrant fouls? The answer you are looking for is "No"!
Personally, I think it is about time that LeBron was bodied around the rim. Every highlight you ever see of LeBron involves the dunking or sinking of layups with no one around or contesting him.
I mean, I could average 30-some points a game if I could have uncontested layups and dunks.
During Jordan's first couple of years, especially in the playoffs, he was pushed and bumped and fouled hard repeatedly.
Antonio Daniels of the Wizards summed it up perfectly. "There's a difference between taking hard fouls and trying to hurt somebody. No one in this locker room or that locker room fouls anybody with the intention of hurting him.
"That's not the way the NBA is. That's not the way it's played. We all get knocked to the floor. That's playoff basketball.
"When you drive, you should expect to get hit."
Does LeBron expect the rest of the playoffs not to be physical? Does he think that the Pistons won't bump and push him? How about the Celtics?
And let's assume the Cavs make it back to the Finals. Does LeBron believe that the West does not play physically?
The Spurs have Bruce Bowen, the Suns have Raja Bell, and the Lakers have Kobe Bryant. All three of them are or have been NBA All-Defensive first team. They all love to play physically and knock you around.
The playoffs are more intense than the regular season, no matter which sport you pick. The reality of it is, the play gets more physical, guys get a little more chippy, and the trash talking tends to be more elevated. It's win or go home.
Or, as the Gatorade commercial says, "There are only two choices: make history or become history."
The quicker LeBron understands that is what the playoffs are about, the quicker he will learn how to win a championship.
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5 months ago
The problem with the NBA is that they are too strict about how they hand out technical fouls and suspensions for fighting. No one wants to be the team that loses a series because they defend themselves or their teammates. There is a difference between retaliation and defense and I think the NBA should learn that difference.
5 months ago
Although LeBron would dominate in any era. He is too good and too physical not to.
5 months ago
Lebron would of dominated in any era...he is too talented and powerful not too. Don't be surprised if Lebron becomes the best player of all - time!
5 months ago
Lebron has the POTENTIAL of being top 5. But to say today he is -- is to be silly. He in no way has deserved the right to be in the top 5 -- much less the top 10. Again, not taking away from the evident talent -- but talent is only a part of it. The accomplishment has to follow. He hasn't come close to doing that part yet.
Also -- with regards to "old school" fouling versus now. I definitely agree that Lebron would be suffering now. His shot isn't that good. He makes bad decisions and sometimes he gets a little too emotional. Hand checking back in the day would've certainly bothered him and taken him out of the game. Until he can show he has the discipline to create and take over a game (this goes for Kobe too btw), he'd just be a physical roll player in my book (if playing back in the day). We're never gonna see that grit and determination now -- cuz the NBA has taken defense and chuck it in the garbage and is putting offense on the pedestal. The balance is gone -- and hence forth -- very difficult to determine who really is THAT great... (anymore).
from 5 months ago
John,
I completely agree with you. Kobe would have struggled in that era too. I really wish that NBA would get back to a more balanced game and get the offense off the pedestal but ESPN is kinda to blame to because all they show is dunks and three's. No highlights of defensive stands.
5 months ago
I agree with you on the part that today's game doesn't have the hard fouls that were commited in the playoffs (or even regular reason) two decades ago. 'THE CALL' that got everyone talking about, I think Reggie Miller put it the right way. It wasn't a Flag 2 call and would Haywood have been thrown out if it was Wally instead of Lebron? and as far as complaining goes, everyone did it back in the day, and everyone does it now. Sadly, thats the only way you get calls in the NBA...if you dont complain, you wont get calls...why do you think rookies dont get enough calls? because they are still learing the tools of the trade. MJ complained, Kobe does, Lebron does...its sad that NBA makes these player complain for every call when i am sure most of them wouldn't do it if they always got the call they deserved without saying anything. and as far as players like Lebron and Kobe not being able to play great in those eras, you have to blind to think they wouldn't be able to do it. One thing about every great player is their ability to adapt to the type of play. If Kobe and Lebron got into the league around early 80's like MJ, they would adjust to the type of play that was normal in those days and they still would be great. The players that wouldn't be as good as they are today are small PGs like Tony Parker, Steve Nash, Arenas who can get to the paint without worrying about landing on their rear end everytime.
from 4 months ago
You are wrong.
The NBA was much more about offense in those days.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_hollinger/10/25/defense.stats/
5 months ago
I believe the author is confused by potential and talent. Talent (LBJ) expresses that the individual possesses the natural skills to achieve, whereas potential (Kwame Brown) is judged more upon body and frame of an athlete rather than immediate skill.
I agree that the NBA is softer, but you can't blame the players for that, blame David Stern. If you're a young player coming into the league you are conditioned by the rules that surround the game. If Lebron played in the 80's I believe he would've adapted just fine.
Remember it's a double edged sword, if fouls are called more frequently today, than defense is harder to play due to the obvious seperation a player has to create.
5 months ago
this isn't about what the author said, but in response to one of the comments:
"You should also learn to distinguish "5 most talented" with "5 greatest", because I used the former. And yes, Lebron would be among the 5 most talented players in the NBA at any given point in history."
in my opinion, kobe and jordan embody talent, whereas shaq and lebron embody dominance due to strength and size. not everyone with talent can realize its potential (carter), and not everyone with size and strength can utilize it (kwame). no one thinks shaq actually had a talent to play basketball- he's no kareem or russell, but he was a freak of nature that no one could contain. this is the same with lebron: he has no fundamental basketball skills, but he can get by because he knows how to use his body, size, and strength to over power his defenders. kobe on the other hand doesn't have the size and strength, but he has talent, skill, and creativity to get the job done. both players are effective, but they get the job done due to different reasons.
kobe is going down in history as one of the greatest AND most talented players, while lebron, if things don't change with him, will go down as one of the most dominant players alongside shaq.
5 months ago
The NBA is much softer yes, and it's getting ridiculous. However there is a difference between the hard fouls back then, and what Haywood did to LeBron. The difference is back in those days the players would get up enough to foul the hell out of you, but still go for the ball at the same time. Now, anytime someone wants to flagrant foul someone, they're too lazy to even do it well. Haywood didn't even get up in the air to foul LeBron, and seriously that was a dangerous play. LeBron could have gotten hurt from that foul by Haywood. If you're going to make a hard foul, do it right. But I do agree, the NBA needs to quit calling every hard foul a flagrant foul.
5 months ago
Lebron couldnt play back then? Wow...Nba players are bigger and stronger now, who would have guarded Lebron? I could average 30 on dunks and Layups. If u dont think its special that a 6-9 250 dude can blow by any 1 defender for a dunk you'v probably never touched a basketball. And with your comment about the foul in question, you've probably never been a foot above the groud either. Lemme explain something...when a person has momentum going towards the basket and you extend your arms and push there midsection theres only one thing that can happen. An awkward fall. Every time....Breden Haywood could have jumped and tried a hard foul with his body while actually making a play on the ball. However, if he had of done that he would have got dunked on. Thats the thing....no big man, with the exception of maybe a handful can even body up with Lebron on a drive. He's that explosive. When Jordan drove to the basket he was clobbered but with body shots...no Shoves out of bounds and if he did then he got up pissed. Every time. Dont matter who it is.... go to a playground right now, wait till someone drives hard and jumps for a layup and then push them at there waist. Lemme kno what that guys reaction was buddy.
5 months ago
Jeff...lol, that was just plain ignorance. He gets by with strength and size. Not talent...ok, so, Do you guys watch games? Jesus...You dont think a guy with his size...what he can do, is talent? His footwork, for a 6 foot 2 guy is incredible. As a 6'9 guy. He started his Nba career at point guard. So, Magic "got by" because of size? Lebron has no fundamental basketball skills? Im seriously laughing as i type this. Please give me more.....so when u say lebron will go down as dominant alongside Shaq, to who? You? All u guys who keep complaining about Lebron gets too many dunks. That translates to one thing...He is unguardable. Deal with it and shutup. Youngest to 10,000 and everything else, i think he'll finish along the likes of himself.
5 months ago
wow brandon, if it isn't enough that i have taken you down on every bleacher article you try once again to display your ignorance. haven't you learned your lesson?
"You dont think a guy with his size...what he can do, is talent?"
how is using your body and strength talent? what kobe and jordan can do without strength and size is called talent.
"His footwork, for a 6 foot 2 guy is incredible."
do YOU actually watch games? when was james ever noted for his footwork? here's the answer: never. if james had footwork he would be a million times better than kobe or jordan is today, but he's not.
"So, Magic "got by" because of size? Lebron has no fundamental basketball skills?"
i can't believe you're comparing magic's basketball skills to lebron's. THAT right there is pretty hilarious. whoever said magic "got by"? magic had size but he had incredibly sound basketball skills on top of that, something lebron doesn't have. you do realize that there are successful players who exhibit every possible combination of the two notions? talent+size=magic, kareem; talent-size=iverson, kobe, jordan; size-talent=shaq, lebron.
"so when u say lebron will go down as dominant alongside Shaq, to who?"
this sentence doesn't even make sense.
"All u guys who keep complaining about Lebron gets too many dunks. That translates to one thing...He is unguardable."
when did anyone say he was not unguardable? the fact that i said he is one of the most dominant alongside shaq shows he's unguardable. shaq was unguardable, but did he have talent or skills? i think not. same thing with lebron: he has no fundamental footwork, jumpshot, or free throw skills but he can do without because of his size and strength to take it to the hole, which is what makes him unguardable, just like it was for shaq. it doesn't take talent to do what shaq did, it just takes figuring out how to use your body. by the way you bring up points that weren't even disputed kind of shows your insecurities about lebron doesn't it?
"Youngest to 10,000 and everything else"
it's kind of obvious don't you think that if kobe were drafted by a down-in-the-dumps cleveland team instead of a deep, shaq-dominated laker team, that kobe would be the youngest to any record? so the fact that lebron will hold any of those records aren't even impressive relative to kobe, given that kobe in the same situation as lebron would have done the same thing.
5 months ago
With regards to the fouling from the "old days"... Here was a comment made on Yahoo sports with regards to the Wizards-Cavaliers series... Just wanted to use to reinforce my earlier statements.
“I’ve never seen anybody get wiped out like that in a game I played in,” Cleveland’s Daniel Gibson said. “But you go back to watching some of those old, old games you see those type of things a lot.”
Said Washington’s Gilbert Arenas: “When I was young, watching basketball, the foul they’re calling out there is like golf compared to what the Bad Boys used to do with Michael Jordan and each other. So, if it is getting out of hand, I must have been blind when I used to watch basketball.”
Article can be found here:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Ag1Dy0GZrW2NXMRvuz_EPzu8vLYF?slug=ap-cavaliers-wizards&prov=ap&type=lgns
5 months ago
He flat out pushed him. He didn't go for the ball at all. If he had hit him harder but went for the ball at least a little I would've had no problem with it. My problem lies in that he didn't even try to fake like he was going for the ball. That ISN"T how the game is played. Period.
5 months ago
You make it sound like he had some premeditated intention to harm him. All I know is that after the game Haywood apologized to Lebron -- re-iterated that he was not trying to hurt Lebron and thats it.
Let me take it from another angle -- HOW IS the game played? When you are desperately trying to defend, you're fatigued, and you have lost body control to whatever reflexes your mind has you locked in -- what do you think the result will be? Have you ever played basketball? If you have -- then you know sometimes these things happen. Again, its not intentional -- its not even about how the game is played -- its just inevitable when ballers are playing hard. I think that should be recognized before we are so quick to accuse Brendan of trying to play "dirty". When I talk about the game as it was of old -- these types of fouls were a result of hard-nosed intense play. People understood that and let it be. Its got nothing to do with players playing some twisted messed-up vengeful way in order to hurt another. Albeit -- I do concede that it definitely does happen -- and because on occasion it does happen -- the NBA has felt the need to take steps to protect players (and as a result de-balanced the game).
5 months ago
Lebron is too soft to play in the Old NBA...Sissy! To much hype...
5 months ago
Haha, i didnt realize this was the same moron Jeff from earlier threads but i guess its no coincidience 2 of the stupidest posts Ive seen on here come from the same guy. Listen....You are comparing a center to a player who 99% creates from the perimeter. If Lebron was just dominate wouldnt he play more from the post? He almost never does. If you cant stop a guy from getting to the basket you draw a charge on him. Lebron rarely gets called for offensive fouls, because he isnt out of control going to the basket. My point was his balance and movement, is unheard of. It makes his special. What are fundamental basketball skills? Please elaborate and tell me what it is Lebron cant do on the basketball court...I'll wait.......Because there is nothing he cant do. He played the point his entire first year...The entire first year!!! No skills? A 6'8 point guard. You ever play basketball? Ever? You cant be serious...For the last time...like Matt pointed out, he flat out pushed him. If wally Sczerbiak was able to elevate that high for a score towards the basket and was shoved the same way it would have been a flagrant. Period. It wasnt a play on the ball whatsoever....It was cheap. If a guy pushed me like that while i was airborn id assume it was intention to harm me. So would you, because your defender should never have to resort to a mid air push. That move compromises safety...awkward falls are never fun
5 months ago
tisk tisk. once again brandon proves his denseness. not only does he not know who said what in this thread, he doesn't even know which comments of his got completely dismantled in previous posts.
"You are comparing a center to a player who 99% creates from the perimeter."
when did i say shaq created from the perimeter, or that lebron creates from the paint? that's your idiotic assumption. this whole argument is obviously going above your head: the point that matters is how each person achieves his production, not where. each person's position is irrelevant here because the point is not where each person plays. have you ever heard of an analogy? my guess is that your intelligence isn't advanced enough to grasp parallelisms. the reason why lebron is an analog to shaq is that he creates his offensive production mainly by using his body, just like shaq created his opportunities using his body.
"Lebron rarely gets called for offensive fouls, because he isnt out of control going to the basket. My point was his balance and movement, is unheard of."
do you really think that shaq never made offensive fouls because he was rarely called for one? it's a known fact that the refs had a habit of ignoring shaq's offensive fouls because of the way he played- but that doesn't change the fact that they were offensive fouls. ever notice how lebron plays? he drives expecting to butt everything in his way. just because he never gets called for an offensive foul doesn't mean he's not committing them. and this again illustrates why lebron doesn't have (or need) footwork: because his size and the momentum he's able to achieve from it allows him to cut through the defense without the use of skillful footwork. compare this to kobe or jordan who can defeat any defense using creativity and improvisation. you know what allows them to do that? footwork and balance. what lebron does is elementary compared to this. can you grasp this simple concept?
"What are fundamental basketball skills?"
you ask me this like there's no such thing.
"Please elaborate and tell me what it is Lebron cant do on the basketball court...I'll wait.......Because there is nothing he cant do."
wow, this one clinched your ignorance about the game of basketball. it pretty much shows how you believe that having good stats implies that the player must have good basketball skills, which is a completely fallacious. lebron's a great player, but to think that he's perfect, wow- that's just blind love for your favorite player. you know what that's called? delusional.
you want to know what lebron can't do? he's not a good jump shooter, he's not a good 3-point shooter, he's not a good free throw shooter, and he lacks the footwork to have any creativity or improvisational skills. i'll tell you what he can do: he can finish at the hole and change his shots because of his size and strength, not footwork.
i'm sure if you're astute enough, you can gather from what lebron can and can not do what should be solid basketball skills.
and for the rest of your post, i don't even know what you're talking about because i never even mentioned this whole business about the foul on lebron.
why don't you let your argument do the talking instead of resorting to ad hominem attacks. it's no surprise that people with the least substance or intelligence have to resort to such methods. come back when you learn how to think properly.
5 months ago
I never said perfect....wtf. whos perfect who moron. I said he can do everything on the court. He actually is a good jumpshooter and 3 point shooter. Who's standards of good are we going by? Yours, ok, he cant shoot. I personally believe he's greatly improved his jumpshooting. So does every other NBA analyst Ive heard. I dunno....if it was that easy why dont all defenses just back off him and let him shoot. That'd be the most logical thing to do if what your claiming is true. Right. Force him to shoot jumpers. Give me one person who has some sort of credibility who shares your view on Lebron being Shaq esque and his lack of actual skill. Where are you pulling this from?
5 months ago
wow, AGAIN. from now on, i'm not even going to point out your inanity.
"I never said perfect....wtf. whos perfect who moron. I said he can do everything on the court.
um, i believe "he can do everything on the court" is equivalent to you claiming that he is a perfect basketball player. what did you think i was saying? that he was a perfect human being?? why would i think lebron's a perfect person? for that matter, why would i think kobe's a perfect human being? we're talking about BASKETBALL, not ethics. somebody's obviously too slow to understand the context of this discussion. moron.
"Who's standards of good are we going by? Yours, ok, he cant shoot. I personally believe he's greatly improved his jumpshooting."
why would i go by my standards? we're comparing amongst the top tiered basketball players, and lebron is a straggler in terms of shooting ability- my nor your standards can alter that fact. furthermore, improvement is not a sufficient case for becoming good. i can improve to be a better basketball player today by practicing; does that mean i'm now in the same league as kobe? ridiculous reasoning. the day lebron improves his shooting ability to the same level as jordan or kobe, then you can talk about lebron being a skilled player.
"dunno....if it was that easy why dont all defenses just back off him and let him shoot. That'd be the most logical thing to do if what your claiming is true. Right. Force him to shoot jumpers."
if you aren't aware, that is what every team in the nba has been doing, not to mention that that is how the spurs swept the cavs in the finals last year by forcing lebron to settle for jumpers. every coach knows that lebron is not a good jump shooter or free throw shooter, and that his primary method of scoring is bulldozing to the rim, which is why every coach has claimed that they need to make him shoot jumpers and block his path to the hole. where have you been these last couple years? obviously dreaming up a fantasy version of lebron that doesn't exist yet.
"Give me one person who has some sort of credibility who shares your view on Lebron being Shaq esque and his lack of actual skill. Where are you pulling this from?"
find me a significant group of intelligent people who thinks lebron is a finesse/skilled player who has a polished jump shot or the creativity to maneuver/break down the defense. now find me a significant group of intelligent people that doesn't think lebron is a brute force offensive player. good luck on both, because you won't find much for either; but i'm sure you'll find a larger foundation for the opposite of each of those claims. it's only a simple step to create the analogy between two players who play different positions, but yet employ the same strategy to achieve his offensive production: using body size and strength, not skill. (i'm of course not endorsing the fact that lebron and shaq are of the same skill level; obviously lebron is slightly more skilled than shaq, but the holistic and relativistic consideration still remains)
seriously, need we continue this? it's becoming very tedious
5 months ago
ok, see now your going finesse/ skill....no, you said he wasnt skilled. You wont find 1 person, who analyzes players as a job say Lebron isnt skilled. As far as finesse goes, no, i dont think hes among the top. I really dont care about finesse if im still getting 30, 8 and 7 from him. I said Lebron can do anything on the court. See now, people who play basketball say this referencing to a guys ability to score, pass, rebound, defend, etc. Its basketball talk....haha, im sorry if you mistook me for talking about Lebron being a perfect person. I just assumed you'd pick up on that one. Now, i never said Lebron was one of the top shooters in the game. 5 years in Jordan wasnt either. Neither was Kobe...no matter what you think. Thats not the point though....I said i thought Lebron was a good shooter and that he has greatly improved his jumpshot. An opinion shared by millions Im sure. And teams try to force him to shoot jumpers, meaning contested ones. They dont just let him pull up....Before you can make someone shoot jumpers you have to stop them from getting to the basket...Duh, The fact that he can knock down the shot and no 1 guy can stay in front of him is where problem comes. Just cause he gets dunks doesnt mean thats all he can do. If that was th case they'd post his up every play or just change his position all together to the 4. What Im saying is if what your saying is true, that he cant shoot, then it'd be rather easy to guard him. The reason he drives by guys is because they're playing up on him, i mean...its pretty obvious to me. How many dunks or layups u think Lebron is averaging a game...Shaq's entire production came from there. Lebron hasnt even tapped into facets of him potential game like the post where Jordan grabbed 60 percent of his points in his last 5 years. When Jordan was in his athletic prime, he wasnt a top shooter in the league. Not even close. He was never, ever a feared 3 point shooter. Kobe is. Jordan wasnt the same type of shooter Kobe is, theres similarities because Kobe modeled his after Jordan. Who cares...If you go to points in the paint scored for the season for each individual im sure Kobe and Lebron's margins arent as far as you think they are. Ill do some research actually.
5 months ago
"ok, see now your going finesse/ skill....no, you said he wasnt skilled."
god brandon, are you this dense? it doesn't matter if i mentioned finesse or not. that is irrelevant because i never changed my claim that he was unskilled. i don't care about finesse either when it comes to impacting the game, so my adding that shouldn't change the original claim about skills. stop caviling over trivial details that don't alter the main argument.
"I said Lebron can do anything on the court. See now, people who play basketball say this referencing to a guys ability to score, pass, rebound, defend, etc. Its basketball talk....haha, im sorry if you mistook me for talking about Lebron being a perfect person. I just assumed you'd pick up on that one."
lol. do i even need to point out your poor comprehension skills here? this is what i said to you because YOU'RE the one who thought i was talking about "perfect person" where as I WAS the one who was talking about "perfect player". lol, this just proves how you don't even know who is saying what. shall we recap how this progressed?:
1) you said "he can do everything on the court" (meaning he's a perfect basketball player)
2) i said "he's not perfect" (meaning perfect basketball player)
3) you said "I never said perfect....wtf. whos perfect who moron." (you're thinking that i'm thinking you're referring to a perfect person)
4) i said "you're too dense to realize we're talking about perfect player, not perfect person"
5) you finally said "we're talking about perfect player" (uh, duh...that's what i said)
lol
and even if you didn't mean perfect player in #3 and you meant player, that also means you're contradicting yourself because "able to do everything on the court" means "perfect player". either way, you lose.
"Neither was Kobe...no matter what you think. Thats not the point though....I said i thought Lebron was a good shooter and that he has greatly improved his jumpshot. An opinion shared by millions Im sure."
are you really this dense to not even understand after reading an analogy? i'm sure millions agree he IMPROVED his shooting ability, just like i do to...but IMPROVING is not the same thing as BEING good. get it?
"What Im saying is if what your saying is true, that he cant shoot, then it'd be rather easy to guard him. The reason he drives by guys is because they're playing up on him, i mean...its pretty obvious to me. How many dunks or layups u think Lebron is averaging a game..."
the reason he drives is because he has the strength, size, and momentum. if you don't understand this, you don't understand what every coach tries to do when defending lebron. it's NOT EASY to guard him because of this, NOT because he can both drive AND shoot. god your reasoning skills are poor. the majority of lebron's shots do indeed come from layups/dunks. (of course not as much as shaq because shaq is a center- i thought you would be able to deduce that on your own from our previous discussion on HOW a player achieves, not necessarily WHERE). and if you check the stats, over half of lebron's shots come from layups/dunks, whereas about a third of kobe's comes from layups/dunks.
"Lebron hasnt even tapped into facets of him potential game like the post where Jordan grabbed 60 percent of his points in his last 5 years. When Jordan was in his athletic prime, he wasnt a top shooter in the league. Not even close. He was never, ever a feared 3 point shooter. Kobe is. Jordan wasnt the same type of shooter Kobe is, theres similarities because Kobe modeled his after Jordan."
why are we talking about potential or what jordan was like in his first 5 years? we're comparing the skill set of kobe and lebron NOW. this is all irrelevant to the argument.
i'm getting tired of this. it's now becoming a large waste of time. i'm done
5 months ago
show me where to get this stat that shows a half of his points come from layups and dunks.....So he gets 15 points off layups and dunks and 7 from the line. sooo, he averages 4 points outside of the paint. Like i said, go check the stats, wherever you can find em, ( i couldnt yesterday) id be willing to bet that the margin is less than 5 points a game. Tony Parker gets 90% of his points in the paint. Will he just be remembered as a point guard with no skill who just flew by guys? No, he'll be remembered as a great point with multiple championships....whats the diff. And the whole perfect player, person blah blah...i never said perfect u fucking idiot. You posted it yourself...i said he can do anything....Once again basketball talk for ability to shoot, drive, pass, rebound....You are the one who first brought up the word perfect. Not me... you said perfect Jefferey. lol. Id love to talk to u over the phone and have a real debate since ur rebuttals have gone to, i cant believe your that dense for lack of a point to make. Not like youve made a good point in this enitre thread. But seriously find that stat for me that you obviously have access to that shows half Lebron's shots come from layups dunks. And me bringing up Jordans shooting is very much relevant Jefferey...your comparing shooting and bringing up Jordans name for what exactly? Kobe isnt the type of shooter Jordan was...so i really dont get ur point. Either way, you dont know basketball...there have been plenty of guys who have insane athleticism, who unfortunately didnt have a good jumpshot...Those guys never lasted in the league, and the ones who did saw little to no playing time. And now, we have a guy averaging 30 points.....82 games, If u actually played basketball ( by the way, u never gave a rebuttal for that...) these idiotic claims would never escape your cockholster...Either way Jefferey, good day buddy. I wont be responding again. Unless of course we can have this debate live so i can actually hear how stupid u sound on speaker phone as i make you out to be a bigger moron than u actually are.
The fact that Lebron's shooting is enough for u to write him off as not on Kobe's level...who's what 8 years older than Lebron shows me some of you Kobe ball huggers are really afraid of how Kobe's gonna be remembered in 5 years or so, as opposed to how Lebron will be remembered when he finally retires in eh....2019, 2020?....This whole thing is silly...Lebrons output in points since his rookie year= 21, 27, 31, 27, 30....shakes head. And.....AND, he does the other things better than Kobe...with the exception of steals and free throw percentage, he blows Kobe out of the water...You can put up Kobes best statistical year, and Lebron's numbers from this year and almost any other year make Bryants look like childs play.
5 months ago
"show me where to get this stat"
why don't you just go to nba.com and look under the stat section? and a 5point separation here is a significant difference given how the scoring average difference is less than 2 points and each person averages about 10 made shots.
"Will he just be remembered as a point guard with no skill who just flew by guys?"
damn brandon. let me ask you this. what's your iq? obviously less than 70 since you STILL don't realize HOW people play, and what it TAKES to play that way. tony parker is way more skilled than lebron in getting to the hole than lebron because of his ability to improvise and establish solid footwork to accomplish it, but he is NOT AS EFFECTIVE as lebron because lebron can do it more often due to his size and strength. GET THE DIFFERENCE MENTALLY CHALLENGED CHILD?
"And the whole perfect player, person blah blah...i never said perfect u fucking idiot. You posted it yourself...i said he can do anything....Once again basketball talk for ability to shoot, drive, pass, rebound....You are the one who first brought up the word perfect. Not me... you said perfect Jefferey. lol. Id love to talk to u over the phone and have a real debate since ur rebuttals have gone to, i cant believe your that dense for lack of a point to make. Not like youve made a good point in this enitre thread."
lol, are you brain dead now? "can do everythying on the court" IS THE SAME THING as being a "perfect basketball player". ever heard of the word SYNONYMS? or the term PARAPHRASE? reading comprehension must not be your strong suit. you obviously have no point to make so the last 3 or 4 posts you have made have been nothing but empty rhetoric and caviling, not to mention ad hominem arguments. not surprising given that you have no solid thesis to support.
"And me bringing up Jordans shooting is very much relevant Jefferey...your comparing shooting and bringing up Jordans name for what exactly? Kobe isnt the type of shooter Jordan was...so i really dont get ur point."
my bringing up jordan was to illustrate he was a good jump shooter (not the best). your mentioning the early jordan year's is irrelevant unless you want to talk about lebron's potential, which is again irrelevant because we're talking about skills each player has NOW. and everyone knows kobe is a better pure shooter than jordan was, as phil jackson and tex winter said.
"there have been plenty of guys who have insane athleticism, who unfortunately didnt have a good jumpshot...Those guys never lasted in the league,"
hmm, the name shaq ring a bell? the figure of the original analogy
"If u actually played basketball ( by the way, u never gave a rebuttal for that...)"
do i need a rebuttal for this? great job caviling.
"The fact that Lebron's shooting is enough for u to write him off as not on Kobe's level...who's what 8 years older than Lebron shows me some of you Kobe ball huggers are really afraid of how Kobe's gonna be remembered in 5 years or so, as opposed to how Lebron will be remembered when he finally retires in eh....2019, 2020?"
afraid? who's afraid of how kobe's going to be remembered? his legend is already cemented.
"This whole thing is silly...Lebrons output in points since his rookie year= 21, 27, 31, 27, 30....shakes head. And.....AND, he does the other things better than Kobe...with the exception of steals and free throw percentage, he blows Kobe out of the water.."
do you even know how to think? you do realize that lebron was drafted by a down in the dumps cavs, while kobe was drafted by the lakers, a perennial playoff team that had all star veterans, and most importantly the most dominant player in shaq? everyone knows if kobe were drafted to a situation like lebron, his first 3 seasons in the league would be the same as lebron's. great insight on context brandon.
"You can put up Kobes best statistical year, and Lebron's numbers from this year and almost any other year make Bryants look like childs play."
let's see, lebron's best year is this year. hmmm, let's see. oh what have we here? in 2002-03, kobe averaged 30 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, 2.2 steals, and almost 1 block: this is a guard who played in the triangle offense when it was still running through shaq, as opposed to the cavs who run everything through lebron! yeah, i can see how lebron's stats "blow" kobe's "out of the water". lol
it's getting quite obvious that you don't know how to think, and that the intense and rigorous battering coming your way is obviously rattling your brain. ANYONE, i mean ANYONE reading the dialogue we had can EASILY see that YOU had very few points to make and that I REFUTED EVERY one of your paltry points. i can see how easily frustrated you get when i'm completely tearing apart every line you write. i thought you would have learned by now after getting schooled time and time again. i can tell by your argumentation skill, you're either still in elementary school, or your brain is still stuck in elementary school. this discussion is too advanced for you- come back when you figure out how to think and analyze properly.
5 months ago
call me...lol, 30, 8, 7....did u watch Kobe in his rookie year? You think he could have averaged 20,5 and 5? ok...Kevin Durant is a better player as a rookie than Kobe was...20,5 and5...Kobe didnt do that for like 3 years. Eddie Jones was better. Fact...he didnt put up 20,5 and 5....call me...seriously
5 months ago
"did u watch Kobe in his rookie year? You think he could have averaged 20,5 and 5? ok...Kevin Durant is a better player as a rookie than Kobe was...20,5 and5. Kobe didnt do that for like 3 years."
thank you for proving my point. you think kevin durant was better than kobe his rookie year? kobe was already beating nba players when he was in high school in philly. everyone knows kobe his rookie year was better than kevin durant his rookie year. but do you know what else is different? the team situation each faced. kevin durant was the MAIN player on a down in the dumps team, just like lebron. if kobe were drafted to the sonics or the cavs, or if kobe had stayed on the hornets instead of moving to la his rookie year, it's a given that kobe would have been a starter and averaged at least 20 points. this is just common sense, not an opinion. furthermore, he was already the second best player on the team after shaq his rookie year. eddie jones better than him? yet another idiotic statement by brandon. i repeat again: learn how to analyze.
"call me...seriously"
lol, obviously you have nothing to say, so you resort to irrelevant, empty rhetoric to give off the impression that you actually know something, whereas i have given you solid analysis and reasoning for every one of my claims and for every one of my rebuttals against yours. it's not surprising that each post of yours progressively becomes more inane and more irrelevant and less analytical. lol
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