With April drawing near in the NBA, the MVP discussion is beginning to take its form for this passing season. The voting process, and what determines an MVP (maybe I should say who), is rather chameleon-esque, with a seemingly different flavor with each individual season. Do not get me wrong, the following "formulas" for determining the MVP I am going to describe are not necessarily my opinion and I mean to only describe them in an objective fashion.
Last year, the Dallas Mavericks won 67 games, and had a great regular season, no one can argue that. Dirk Nowitzki was also the MVP of the NBA last year. So according to the logic of the voters last year, the best player on the best team should win the MVP award. Check, I got it.
The two years previous, the NBA MVP was Steve Nash, who went to the Phoenix Suns and completely altered the dynamic of the Sun's franchise. The explanation for his winning the MVP was his ability to make others around him better, and changing the fabric of a franchise and making it competitive. I would say making it a winner, but the Suns haven't won a championship, so that would be a stretch. OK, I got that too, moving on.
So how will the MVP be chosen this year? I have to ask.... If you apply the Dirk Nowitzki method, voting the best player on the best team, then you focus your attention to the Boston Celtics, who at the moment have a 56-15 record, and tonight play the New Orleans Hornets, the only team they haven't beaten this season. You could go with the Dirk method, and say KG is the MVP. Now you only have the best team to choose from, remember? So, before you go too far in one direction (and I know what direction you will go ), look at the way the Celtics play the game. They are all about team team team, and suit up for each other night in and night out. Yes, Kevin Garnett is a huge part of that, but is Paul Pierce not supposed to get any credit for this season just because he is not a newcomer and dealt with them being literally a Developmental league team for the last three to four years? You could make a legitimate argument that Paul Pierce is the best player on the Celtics, with his improved defense this season, outstanding passing, and his overall commitment to team basketball. I'm not trying to say that Paul Pierce should get the MVP over KG if this is how the voting is going to go, but at the very least Paul Pierce should win another MVP. Most valuable professional, I mean, because at any time Paul Pierce could have said I want out, and made a fuss like most stars his caliber do when they wish to be traded from a bad franchise. I give Kudos wrapped in a big gift basket to Paul Pierce for sticking with the Celtics through the good times and the bad times.
79 comments Last one added about 1 year ago — Leave a Comment
James McNamee about 1 year ago
I'm new to this site, it seems like a good place to give your opinion. Hope you guys like my first article.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
James,
Your logic and story line are superb. I can only add this one aspect:
CP3 improves the whole league.
Early in this season, my few friends that were posting on NOLA were bemoaning the fact that no one was showing up for the games. New Orleans was focused on rebuilding. The Hornets had jsut returned to New Orleans. Chris Paul being Chris Paul made friends in and out of the NBA. He helped his team, he helped is competition, he helped his community, he helped kids. He gave kids in New Orleans room to dream beacuse he had a dream.
Because Chris Paul had a dream a miracle happened in New Orlaens. "One man can make a difference and every man should try." - JFK
Good article, James.
Thank You.
Hornetspoets
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Divya Parmar about 1 year ago
Good article. CP3 has a great case. We'll see who wins out.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
To put the icing on this cake, the Celtics and the Hornets play tonight!!! It will be one of the best NBA games this season to date. Can't wait!
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
"but since Pau Gasol is there that means Kobe should get the award now? That is the only difference between now and when Kobe was a great player before. He has more help than before. Does that mean he should win the MVP? I just don't think so."
so according to you, jordan never deserved his mvps when he played with pippen and rodman and kerr and kukoc? or bird never deserved it? or russell? or kareem? or shaq? or nash? or dirk? having help doesn't disqualify you from being a legit mvp candidate, or 99% of the past mvp winners wouldn't have won.
and you definitely don't need "stars" to have a good team, as opposed to how you like to make the hornets look worse than they really are. the fact is that the hornets have good players beside cp3. same thing for the lakers- there aren't any stars (gasol, but just barely- he couldn't even lead memphis to anything in the east) but they're a good, solid team. everybody put both the lakers and hornets out of the playoffs at the beginning of the year (the lakers only won 3 more games than the hornets last year), but look where both are. plus the lakers have not even had several of their key players for most of the season.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Kobe was great last year though. He scored all the points, and as usual was first team all- defense. He did not win the MVP then, and is having another great season now. Since he didn't win the MVP now, and is playing like his usual self, what's the difference? Pau Gasol, Derek Fisher and the emergence of Andew Bynum are the difference. Kobe is still the same this year as opposed to last year, so why should he win the MVP now? Paul and KG are more viable candidates to me then Kobe, for what they have done to improve their teams from last year to this year, especially Paul.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Kobe is not Michael Jordan, and neither is Lebron, so don't even go there.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
"Kobe was great last year though. He scored all the points, and as usual was first team all- defense. He did not win the MVP then, and is having another great season now. Since he didn't win the MVP now, and is playing like his usual self, what's the difference? Pau Gasol, Derek Fisher and the emergence of Andew Bynum are the difference. Kobe is still the same this year as opposed to last year, so why should he win the MVP now? Paul and KG are more viable candidates to me then Kobe, for what they have done to improve their teams from last year to this year, especially Paul."
so you're going to discredit kobe for his improving his team mates, but give all the credit to chris paul for the emergence of his team mates? that's just blatant hypocrisy. without kobe, pau, bynum and odom can't even lead them to the playoffs any time soon. and the lakers have constantly been plagued by injury for the whole year.
the difference is kobe's sacrificing his stats to help his team mates be more involved. his team mates have finally put in the work ethic this summer that kobe has always done, and that's why they're better. it's not a coincidence his team mates are emerging this year. kg is not even in the discussion for improving his team mates when he has 2 legit all stars next to him. just start being objective, that's all i'm asking from you as a writer
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
and no, kobe's not jordan and neither is lebron. but that doesn't matter because logic must hold regardless of the topic. and yours was illogical
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
No it's not, if Kobe didn't win the MVP before and had great numbers on both ends of the court, then why should he win it now? The better teammates portion of my argument was only to reiterate that the only difference between then when he DIDN'T win MVP and now are the players around Kobe.
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Cody Painschab about 1 year ago
1 word:sucks
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Derek Curry about 1 year ago
Article was good, there is just one thing you can't use in your argument. You think the Paul should win the MVP but in your case against LeBron you said that one of the points why he will not get it is that he is only 23 and they figure he will win one later. You can't use that because Paul is 22. And the only thing I have against that argument as well is that they thought the same thing about Kobe but now he still hasn't won an MVP yet. you can't say that LeBron will because you never know. So age should not even be a consideration.
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Ralph isaac about 1 year ago
Although I wouldn't have a problem with Chris Winning the MVp but you cannot deny what Kobe has done. The Lakers are 25 games over .500, they have weathered injuries to primary players(Bynum, Gasol, Ariza) and Oh yea, Kobe is playing with a torn ligament, teaked ankle and Fisher has a partially torn ligament in his foot. While Cp3 has had most of his squad healthy throughout the year with them not missing more than
5 games.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Come on, do you guys seriously believe that Morris Peterson, Peja Stojakovic, David West and Tyson Chandler are as good as Derek Fisher, Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum (when healthy) ? It is not even close, the Lakers have better talent around Kobe than the Hornets have around Chris Paul. There is no denying that. Last year Kobe had no help last year, in a much more comparible situation to what Paul has this year. You said that the Lakers wouldn't make the playoffs without Kobe this year, the Hornets are a last place team without Paul. In my opinion Kobe is going to win the MVP this year, because he hasn't won it yet. I don't think he should win the MVP for that sole reason but he most likely will because he is older than all the other candidates. If you think that won't factor into the voting, then you don't have a very firm grasp of reality. Age does matter, and the voters will look at Lebron at 23 and Paul at 22 and say that they will get the award down the road. Paul has been so exceptional this year however and the Hornets are performing so well I still think he will still get a strong consideration. Oh, and whoever said that Kevin Garnett isn't responsible for improving his team is a first-class moron. Look at every defensive statistic and who is leading every single one. It is the Boston Celtics. Kevin Garnett is directly responsible for that and him along with Paul Pierce have gotten the Celtics to elite status as an elite defensive team.
To put Kobe vs. Paul to rest, I'll say this. Kobe is a two guard, and a two guard is primarily a scorer and thinks pass second. Chris Paul is a point guard who averages twenty points a game as primarily a facilitator. Twenty points and eleven assists per game. A 4.5 assist to TO ratio too, which means he rarely turns the ball over and makes the right decision with the ball almost every time down the court. Paul is also one of the best rebounding point guards in the league, along with Jason Kidd and Rajon Rondo. Kobe is a great scorer, and has sacrificed his body to play for his team this season. I commend him for that and he is definitely worth mentioning in the voting. He has not eclipsed the performance of Chris Paul this season however, as Chris Paul does it on both ends just like Kobe and means more to his team then any player. He leads the NBA in steals to put the cherry on top. As for Lebron, if you can't lead a team to 50 wins in the EASTERN CONFERENCE ( I don't care what numbers you have! ) , you shouldn't be mentioned in any MVP voting. Sorry Bron Bron lovers, it's not his year.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
Sorry James, Kobe leading the Lakers with a broken down team and a broken down body to a virtually identical record as the hornets, while putting up mvp like numbers- there's nothing that Chris Paul has done that Kobe hasn't done.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Kobe doesn't have 11.5 assists per game, or 2.7 steals per game, and has lead far inferior talent that was the same team as last year to the top of the Western Conference.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
dang james...are you that stupid to take "there's nothing that chris paul has done that kobe hasn't done" word for word into meaning that you equate stats? no wonder you're so stupid. we're talking about relative production. otherwise i can just say stupid crap like yours like chris paul doesn't average the points, rebounds. but picking specific stats where each player should dominate isn't the point idiot.
and stop with the inferior team propaganda. it's just that, propaganda. it holds no truth except to the delusional like you. let's see what cp3 does with half his team gone or hampered by injuries
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
I meant to say hasn't lead far inferior talent, and dang, that's quite a strong statement Anonymous! If you want to call me stupid and flame me about the article because you hate it so much, then stop replying to my comments and get off this page. It would greatly increase the overall basketball IQ of everyone that has read my article if you vacated. Move onto the article that is called Why Kobe Bryant Should Win The MVP, and save the trouble.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
hey james, there's a comment box here for a purpose, so that people who agree and disagree with you can comment. the basketball iq here would have plummeted if i didn't rebut any of your weak points. you don't have to thank me, just doing my job
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
James, your inferior team point really doesn't work especially since the Lakers haven't had a full frontcourt all season. The Hornets have had their starting lineup healthy for 90-95% of the season.
He's got a very good, All-Star power forward in David West(21/9 guaraunteed), a leading rebounder and a very good three point shooter, none of which Kobe had last year. They are in no way comparable situations.
If Gasol had not turned his ankle we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now. The Lakers were building a pretty good lead on the rest of the conference before he went down.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
I just love how you are trying to say that the Hornets have almost as good a team as the Lakers, if you take Paul and Kobe off their respective teams. Even with one injury to Bynum or Gasol, the Lakers still have the better MVP candidate-less lineup. Get this through your head!!! Kobe did not win the MVP last year, and had a comparible season. There is no reason why he should win it this year rather than last year!!!!! Don't give me the playing hurt bit either, because I have seen much more admirable cases of someone playing hurt than Kobe who is playing with a bad finger and a tweaked ankle.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
The Hornets right now are a better team than the Lakers with the injuries the Lakers have.
PG: Fisher
SF: Peja>Radmonovic
PF: Odom=West
C: Turiaf
Easily, a healthy Hornets is the better team right now. That will change when Bynum and Gasol get back. I don't know why you are trying to make it seem like the Hornets do not have a talented team. They could have been decent last year had their whole team been decimated by injuries.
They have two legitimate All-Stars and a former All-Star who is still a great shooter. You can't say team isn't talented with that type of hardware.
Kobe is having a better season this year in many people's eyes. He is playing much better defense, running the triangle better, crashing the boards more, and has almost doubled the amount of double-doubles he accumulated last year. If you can't see the difference then you might need your eyes checked.
And please, tell me who has played at as high a level as Kobe this season with a serious injury on their shooting hand?
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
Let me add to that. It messed up my comment.
Kobe is having a better year any people's eyes. He running the offense better, playing tougher defense, crashing the boards more, and has accumulated almost 2 times as many double-doubles as he did last year. He is a more complete player this season.
The Hornets have two legitimate All-Stars and a former All-Star who still shoot the lights out given the opportunity. Can't ignore that. When Bynum and Gasol get back the Lakers will definately be better. But right now the Hornets are the better team and play with a much higher chemistry as they've been healthy most of the year.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
A serious injury to his shooting hand? He wears that cross bandage and said since he has used that he can barely feel it. Crashing the boards, Paul averages 3.9 rebounds and Kobe averages 6.3. Kobe is 6'7" and Paul is 6'0"!!! Paul shoots better from the field, from the FT-line and from the 3-pt line and averages 6 more assists per game. 6!!! Paul is the MVP, he accounts for almost every basket the Hornets score, and you want to get into the double-doubles? Chris Paul has 47 double-doubles to Kobe's 17 this season.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
"kg is not even in the discussion for improving his team mates when he has 2 legit all stars next to him."
that is still the most ridiculous thing i have heard anyone say maybe to date. if you lived and boston and actually watched another game in the nba other than the ones the lakers play, you would know that kg is more responsible for improving his teammates this year than kobe is, and so is chris paul.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
hahahah, when did double doubles show how much better you are. jason kidd is the king of triple doubles. does that make him better than kobe? or chris paul for that matter? you seriously lack the insight on how to argue for chris paul
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
dang james, you just don't learn your lesson. let's see you or your precious paul play with a torn ligament that doctors recommended needs immediate surgery, and let's see how the hornets do without chandler, west, and peja. let's see him rack up those assists without those guys.
and we're talking about a classic point guard, versus a shooting guard in the triangle offense and you bring up stats? pretty ridiculous when it doesn't even show anything one way or the other
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
"that is still the most ridiculous thing i have heard anyone say maybe to date. if you lived and boston and actually watched another game in the nba other than the ones the lakers play, you would know that kg is more responsible for improving his teammates this year than kobe is, and so is chris paul." hhahaha, i'm sure it's so really difficult to "improve" team mates who are already legit all stars and potential hall of famers. you have a common motif in all your stupid comments: you somehow think players who are already good and already have good skills were somehow improved and given those skills by your beloved chris paul or kg. without kg or chris paul, those guys would be getting similar numbers without as much wins (wins comes from teams, stats come from individuals). of course combining good players into a team is gonna result in wins. paul pierce is no different than before, he just has good team mates finally. kevin garnett is no different than before, he just finally has good team mates.
i don't see chris paul making his team mates so much better like you say. tyson chandler was always getting numbers like that; only difference is that he's a starter on the hornets. same with peja, i don't see any significant improvement. west was the only improvement, but we're looking at someone who was in the league for only 2 years before chris paul got there, you're gonna conclude that he's a nobody from just that? plus he's not even doing that much better if you really look at it because he's averaging almost twice the minutes now than previous seasons when he wasn't even starting at all. i agree with you that chris paul is a key component to the hornets, like garnett is to the celts, like duncan is to the spurs, like kobe is to the lakers. but don't pretend and start exaggerating how he's the reason for everyone playing well and that without him they would be losers.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
1) You said that Kobe has more double-doubles then last year, and that was a point in your last argument. I didn't say double-doubles mattered, you did!
2) Paul Pierce is a completely different player this year than last year or any other year, so I'll go with my previous advice to you to watch an NBA game in which the Lakers aren't one of the teams playing.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
i don't know who you're referring to but i never mentioned double doubles, i'm just pointing out that you did. i guess we're thinking about different people
i do watch many nba games, not just laker games. i'm beginning to suspect you don't given your lack of analysis or failure to notice different aspects of other players, like how pierce was injured for most of the season last year, but despite that he still played at a very high level. and that the year before he was the most efficient player, and that every season he is very consistent? there's nothing different about pierce except for the team mates that he has this year.
seriously james, you just revealed yourself as a hypocrite, and an amateur basketball fan. i have a feeling you just throw around the phrase "i'll go with my previous advice to you to watch an NBA game in which the Lakers aren't one of the teams playing" in order to sound like you know what you're talking about without actually saying anything
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
man james, you just think of every possible excuse or praise for chris paul, and literally discredit anything going for kobe. you got some major bias there, and it completely destroys your credibility. the reason why the media refused to give it to kobe last year despite his phenomenal stats is because his team didn't win at least 50 games. this year, kobe still has mvp numbers and his team is winning. and having better team mates does not hurt kobe because it never hurt any player in the history of the nba. it's good teams that win rings, not individual players. the last 4 years, kobe was the best individual player with a crappy supporting cast. this year kobe is still the best individual player but with better team mates who improved.
i seriously have no problem with chris paul or kobe winning the mvp because both of them are doing almost the same thing. the reason why your article and comments are so troublesome and fallacious is because juxtaposed against your chris paul's case, it's so inconsistent and contradictory when it comes to talking about kobe.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
If Bynum and Gasol were healthy and played as many games as Chandler and West we wouldnt even be having this discussion because the Lakers would have been so far ahead in the standings.
As for how much better the Lakers lineup is compared to the Hornets, I believe its a lot closer than most people think. The Lakers only have one All-Star besides Kobe with Pau Gasol who made it once. Despite what others would want you to believe, Odom; Fisher and Bynum have never been All-Stars, not even close. Odom is a perenial choker, Fisher has always had consistency problems and Bynum has yet to do anything to merit All-Star status. Bynum had an early good run, but 13 ppg and 10 rpg hardly makes him elite. Until he can back up all the hype and produce on the court, all he is right now is a player with a lot of unfullfilled potential.
Compare that with the Hornets roster which actually has two All-Stars besides Chris Paul. David West made it this year and Peja did it three times. Tyson Chandler's numbers are comparable with Bynum's. Chandler is a rebounding machine who was 0.4 rpg away from the rebounding title last season and is 3rd this year. Oh and he also belongs to the USA Basketball Men's Team that is going to the Olympics. What has Bynum done compared to that? As for the bench, I would love to see how you would convince anyone that Farmar, Vujacic and Walton are so much better than Bonzi, Bobby Jackson and Pargo. Stop pretending that the Hornets roster is like the Clippers compared to the so-called "All-Star team" the Lakers have.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
1) Paul Pierce from last year ( or any other year for that matter) to this year is a completely different player. He has risen to elite status as a defender and has improved on his passing dramatically. He would have more assists than he has but when the guy you pass it to gets fouled and shoots two it doesn't go in the book as an assist. Last year Paul Pierce sat out so much mainly because the Celtics were so bad. They were trying to get the top pick in the draft ( David Robinson anyone? ). Previous to that, Paul Pierce had only missed nine games total his whole career to that point ( nine seasons ).
2) You guys think I hate Kobe Bryant or something, I don't. Kobe is a great scorer and a great defender. This year he has played very well, there is no doubting that. If you ask me who I think will win the MVP this year, I would have to say Kobe. He is older then the other candidates, and has yet to win the award, so I think he will win it. Should he win it though is another question.
3) Lakers bench
Farmar-Walton -Radmonovic - Turiaf- Mihm
Hornets
Pargo- Bonzi- Wright- Anderson- Armstrong
I'll give you Pargo , but Walton is a better overall player than Bonzi and Turiaf and Mihm are much better than Chris Anderson and Hilton Armstrong if you look at what these two teams will have in the playoffs. I will give you Chandler over Bynum, because he has done it longer, but David West is not Pau Gasol. Odom is better than Stojokavic at this point, who is primarily a guy to spread the floor and shoot more than anything. Odom can handle the ball and pass pretty well too.
4) I think a big reason why the Lakers have gotten better this year ( other than Kobe's play, which has been good as always ) is D-Fish's return to the club. He knows how to run the triangle, and basically knows all he has to do is be ready to catch and shoot on Kobe's kickouts. Also, Odom has not had to rebound as much this year because the Lakers have gotten better production out of their bigs. This allows Odom to play more of the "point forward" role he is best suited to play, because at 6'10", his ball-handling and passing are very good.
5) My point is, the Lakers are a much more balanced team than the Hornets, and Chris Paul has to single-handedly work to get his teammates open shots alot more than Kobe Bryant does! As a point guard, Chris Paul's role on his team is much more important than Kobe's is to his team.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
The Lakers are a more balanced team than the Hornets WHEN Bynum and Gasol return to the lineup, but that hasnt been the case. The Lakers have achieved their record without either of those two having EVER played together, and even without either guy in the last couple of games. So its unfair to say that the Lakers are the better team right now when their season has been marred by so many injuries. Kobe keeping them in contention for the best record in the West despite all the injuries to key players actually is a good reason why he should be MVP. Like the other poster said, if not for the injury problems this wouldnt even be a contest because the Lakers would be so far ahead in the West.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
Without both Gasol and Bynum in the last 8 games the Lakers posted a very respectable 5-3 record. Despite the losses to Charlotte and Memphis the Lakers beat Dallas and Utah on the road and got back that loss from Golden State. Kobe's had to work with Turiaf and Radmanovic playing extended minutes but still managed to keep that Lakers from nosediving. Id like to see what Chris Paul could do without David West and Chandler in the lineup.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
James Id have to disagree with you with the Walton being better than Bonzi thing. Luke may be a better team player and a better teammate but Bonzi is miles ahead in terms of talent and ability. Mihm and Anderson are non-factors here because theyve hardly played. But I think measuring the bench thru the one-on-one matchups is misleading, you have to take them as a whole. The key bench players of the Lakers are Farmar, Vujacic, Walton, Turiaf and Ariza (if he comes back). Can you say without a doubt that that this bunch is absolutely better than Bonzi Wells, Janero Pargo, Bobby Jackson, Rasual Butler, Melvin Ely, Julian Wright, Mike James and Hilton Armstrong?
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Bobby Jackson does not play for the Hornets anymore! He is on the Houston Rockets! To answer your question, no the Lakers bench is better, and Bonzi Wells cannot defend anybody. At least Walton tries to defend, and has a good jumpshot and is a good team player. Bonzi Wells is one dimensional, all he can do is score. For a majority of the games this year, the Lakers have had either Bynum or Gasol, so it really isn't like Kobe has had to do as much as you guys say. When Gasol came, the Lakers won like 10 straight games. You have to have a good wing, a good big and a shooter to run the triangle. They put Fisher and Gasol around Kobe this year, so Kobe is MVP? That makes alot of sense. Paul did play without West and Chandler for periods of time last year, and they didn't make the playoffs, but Paul was a second year player and the team still was able to compete.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Anderson plays more than any other big off the bench for the Hornets since he has returned, so I don't know where you get Chris Anderson not playing.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
More than any other big, I meant to say.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
Luke Walton is a good defender?
Mr. 30% 3P% and 70% FT% is a good shooter?
Boy youll say anything to try to convince everyone that CP's teammates are worse than Kobe's.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
Ok so take out Bobby Jackson and add Chris Anderson. You still think the Lakers have a better bench? If you do then there really is no point arguing because youre obviously biased and no one can change your mind no matter what. However, its pretty clear from the posts above that most people dont share your opinion. But youre still entitled to have one even though you havent been able to convince anyone else that youre right.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
"Paul did play without West and Chandler for periods of time last year, and they didn't make the playoffs, but Paul was a second year player and the team still was able to compete."
Well whoopee for Chris Paul!
Whats your point? Last year Kobe had Kwame and Smush instead of Gasol and Fisher, and Bynum still sucked but not only did they compete, they MADE the playoffs.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
April 11
CP vs Kobe
This is the one that is going to decide the MVP
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
You're probably right there, that game is going to be huge. Let's talk after that all you anonymous people, because all of us are obviously not going to change our minds now.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Chris Paul has nothing around him offensively, Kobe has three other players who can create their own shots in at least one way or another. David West isn't a post prescence, neither is Tyson Chandler. West is a mid-range shooter and a decent post-up guy, and Chandler's points come from alot of Chris Paul alley-oops. Peja is a catch and shoot guy, and so is Mo-Pete. Bonzi is the only player other than Paul that the Hornets have that can get anywhere off the dribble.
The Lakers have Lamar Odom, who has point-forward like skills, Pau Gasol, who has a very good post game, and when Bynum comes back, that gives them another good post game to complement Gasol. Paul has to get open shots for himself and everyone else. Kobe can just give the ball off to Odom and let him isolate on his ( usually) smaller defender or dump into the post to Gasol or Bynum. Paul has to create all of his teammates shots, and work hard every possession to do that.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
Stop lying to yourself James. Chris Paul has 2 superb offensive players in West and Peja, and a good, consistent scorer (and exceptional rebounder) in Chandler. Bonzi is not as consistent, but he's still an offensive threat when he's in rhythm.
"Paul has to create all of his teammates shots, and work hard every possession to do that."
HE'S A POINT GUARD! QUIT RAGGING ON WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE DOING. That's like complaining about how a doctor has to work so hard to save lives, while a CEO doesn't.
On paper the Lakers definitely have a better team than the Hornets, but we're not comparing the two team's rosters. We're comparing the players between the two teams that have actually played this season, and in that context, Kobe has done more with less than Chris. I hate people constantly saying how Chris led a team that had no expectations at the beginning of the season to the top of the West and that's why he should be MVP. Do you people have selective memory? The Lakers were ALSO deemed to be failures this season, even miss the playoffs completely. I don't see any difference between what the Lakers did from the Hornets.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/17320-NBA-Kobe-Bryant-is-the-Clear-MVP-Over-Chris-Paul-110408#comment_72270
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
The Lakers won 10 straight games after they traded for Pau Gasol. That's no coincidence. Kobe is supposed to score, that is HIS role as distributing the ball is Paul's. Thank you captain obvious! Paul is MORE VALUABLE to his team because of the position he plays and his ability to do more with less. You said Kobe has done more with less in context. WOW! Chris Paul has no playmakers around him, granted they are all good with one dimension of their game ( Chandler-rebounding, Peja-shooting, so on ) , but in order to get a shooter his shots, you need someone to get them the ball at the right place and right time. West is the same with his mid-range game, he can't make those shots if Chris Paul doesn't get him the ball. West's strong suit is not his post-game, it is his mid-range game, catching and shooting. You called Chandler a consistent scorer, too. Yeah, because he is consistently catching Chris Paul alley-oops.
Kobe wanted to be traded from that team at the beginning of the year. How is that being a valuable player for your team, bitching about how you want to be traded? Shut up and play, and keep your intentions behind closed doors, like a professional. He didn't realize what he had in Andrew Bynum at the beginning of the year, and underestimated his own team. Not until Gasol showed up did he trust his teammates, so that whole him being a team player argument for the most part is BS. If you honestly think that Kobe has done more in context than Paul then you know absolutely nothing about basketball. It befuddles me that people think Kobe deserves the MVP award over Chris Paul, or Kevin Garnett even! KG should be second, Kobe is third in the voting, at best!
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
"The Lakers won 10 straight games after they traded for Pau Gasol. That's no coincidence. Kobe is supposed to score, that is HIS role as distributing the ball is Paul's."
granted those 10 games were against loser teams, but that's beside the point. of course it's no coincidence. who said pau doesn't impact the team? thank you captain obvious! yes that is kobe's role! nobody said it wasn't dimwit! and nobody was criticizing chris for fulfilling his role! only the fact that you were complaining about it! you must be really dense to think the argument is about what function each player does in his position. it's about what more you do than what is called for in those positions.
"Paul is MORE VALUABLE to his team because of the position he plays and his ability to do more with less."
wow, i never knew being a point guard automatically makes you the noble position of all the positions! i guess every point guard in the league who sets up plays for his team mates must be more valuable than kobe! bravo! and the more with less argument regarding chris- already debunked. even without getting into any other facts, that one link i gave you sufficiently disproves that.
"Chris Paul has no playmakers around him, granted they are all good with one dimension of their game ( Chandler-rebounding, Peja-shooting, so on ), but in order to get a shooter his shots, you need someone to get them the ball at the right place and right time."
hmmm, i never knew receiving a pass from a point guard automatically gives me magic powers to make every shot! thanks chris paul! chris can pass all he wants to the likes of smush parker, kwame, bynum (before this season), vujacic (before this season), (i'm getting tired of listing more- you get the point), but all he can do is pray that they'll make the shots. assists are a two way street bozo, which is why they're over rated.
"You called Chandler a consistent scorer, too. Yeah, because he is consistently catching Chris Paul alley-oops."
hmmm, i wonder why kwame brown was never able to convert any of kobe's lobs, but bynum can this year. hmmmmmm. please refer to above paragraph about assists.
"Kobe wanted to be traded from that team at the beginning of the year. How is that being a valuable player for your team, bitching about how you want to be traded? Shut up and play, and keep your intentions behind closed doors, like a professional."
nice job in showing how your personal distaste for kobe clouds your judgment. this is a regular season award, not a regular season + summer award. i wonder how you feel about kidd complaining, or lebron, or iverson, or marion, or shaq, or jordan (yes jordan), or magic (yes magic) or countless of other players who have done the same thing as kobe.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
"He didn't realize what he had in Andrew Bynum at the beginning of the year, and underestimated his own team."
oh wise one, why did you not let everyone know how great bynum was going to be this season?? get real, 99% of the public was in agreement with kobe's opinion about bynum. all bynum had was potential, and he had yet to show any flashes of what he could do this year. this is the same thing as jordan drafting kwame brown because of his obvious potential. potential can either be realized or not. in kwame's case it wasn't. in bynum's case, it's getting there, but we don't know yet. plus, did you ever think about why bynum's better this year? two words- conditioning and dedication. before this summer, he had neither. he was infamous in la for slacking off and being unmotivated (jackson always criticized him for that). but surprise! surprise! after kobe's rants this summer, in bynum's own words, they motivated him to work out harder and condition his body, and lo and behold, he's bulked up for this year to better handle his position. i don't agree with what kobe did this summer, but you can't deny the effects of it. sometimes good things happen from apparently bad things, and life's full of those examples.
"Not until Gasol showed up did he trust his teammates, so that whole him being a team player argument for the most part is BS"
bs? more like this shows your ignorance. you do know that in the beginning of last season when the lakers were healthy, kobe was lauded by the general media for being a great team player and "finally" trusting his team mates, right? and even when the injury bugs decimated the team, he was still trying to get his team mates involved, but all that accomplished was losing games (see kwame, smush, cook, et al)? only after specific orders by phil jackson himself to take the offensive load did kobe start taking more shots and dominating the ball, leading to astounding feats like having a 4 game streak of 50+ points (all of which they won)- and surprisingly, that's when they started winning again. everyone acknowledges how kobe singlehandedly led a team that had no business in the playoffs actually to the playoffs the last 2 years.
plus, do you really have that selective memory? even before pau came to the lakers (including the period bynum went down) they were the top team in the west. stop making up facts to fit your "argument". once again, like last year, the media was praising kobe for trusting his team mates in the beginning of the season, and for being completely focused on playing the game rather than the off season turmoil. you still think this team player business is bs? you obviously must be living in your own world.
"If you honestly think that Kobe has done more in context than Paul then you know absolutely nothing about basketball."
i think i've clearly shown how much you know about basketball. in fact i've already shown you lie about facts in order to make chris paul look better and kobe look worse. wow, great argumentation skills!
"Kobe is third in the voting, at best!"
you have officially solidified yourself as a basketball ignoramus. even i know that kobe is at worst second and that it's not big deal if chris paul is the mvp. dude, get a life. actually, get a brain.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
To James: ""If you honestly think that Kobe has done more in context than Paul then you know absolutely nothing about basketball."" Typical crutch statement by someone who doesn't really have anything to say but just needs to say something to look like he has the debate in his hands. The guy is obviously obliterating you man. Just open your mind. One thing I do want to add is how you fault Kobe for having Pau, but you think KG should be second in MVP votes when he's playing with 2 sure-fire hall of famers. Pau is good but he's not even hall of fame caliber. In addition to all those other things that show how inconsistent you are in your logic and distort the truth in your favor, this again shows your bias and disingenuous purpose. There's just way too many instances to count of your lying to make Kobe look bad.
And I also want to mention how people like to say Chris Paul makes his team mates better. Peja is the top 4 or 5 shooters in the league. Chandler is doing no better than he was in Chicago (he wasn't even a starter in Chicago and was playing less minutes there than in NO. Extrapolate the averages, and Chandler is doing worse in NO than he would be in Chicago playing the same minutes.) West has obvious talent, so that kind of player is naturally going to get better as each year passes and once he becomes a starter. Chris Paul definitely helps in facilitating the offense but he isn't the one making these guys better, the players themselves are either just good or naturally getting better.
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
chris paul should deserve the mvp
if kobe didn't exist!
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
I love how almost everyone that comments on articles on this site is anonymous. It's not annoying at all.
That's beside the point....
I am going to clear the air on a few things.
1) I DON'T HATE Kobe Bryant. I think he is a great player.
2) We're trying to rip each other's throats out, and it's not worth it.
3) I myself would not mind Kobe winning the MVP, but I just don't think he should... sort of. He wouldn't be the first player to win the MVP based on career achievements, and since he has had a nice season, giving him the MVP is fine. Paul is young and so is LeBron, they will both get theirs. The only thing about that it is the first year back to New Orleans and Paul really has helped make NO a basketball town, at least more than it was. You have the Katrina factor, and that matters to alot of people. Between Kobe having media-darling status playing for the Lakers, and Paul with the Katrina factor, those are two elements that may be overlooked when thinking about the voting.
4) Who I think will win MVP: Kobe
Who I think should win the MVP: CP3
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Anonymous about 1 year ago
"Between Kobe having media-darling status playing for the Lakers"
here's your distortion of truth coming to play again. when do you ever learn? kobe is FAR from being the media darling. if he were, he would have had at least 4 mvps by now. the true darlings of the nba are lebron and most recently chris paul.
"He wouldn't be the first player to win the MVP based on career achievements"
Another distortion of truth: there is sufficient proof that kobe deserves the mvp over anyone else based solely on this year, and for your or anyone else to taint it by saying it's a "lifetime achievement award" is plain disingenuous and cowardly.
"I love how almost everyone that comments on articles on this site is anonymous. It's not annoying at all."
hmmm, i never knew not being anonymous somehow makes whatever you say right and my being anonymous makes it wrong....hmmm, i really should think about changing my name....this is the typical response registered members on bleacher report make when they really have nothing to say but want to make it sound like they know what they're talking about...as if having an identity on bleacher report suddenly bestows them magical thinking powers
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
I meant that you reply to an anonymous comment thinking you are talking to the same person, and then they fire back, " well I never said that! " That part of it is annoying, and I meant to say that Kobe will be HELPED by two things. One, he has never won the award, and two, he has always been a great player. I'm not saying that this year he hasn't played well, because he has!
You're trying to make me look like an asshole when it was a bunch of anonymous comments that got me going in the first place on this board.
Wait, so playing for the Lakers doesn't make you a media darling? When Jack Nicholson is watching from the front row and you get regular season games on ESPN when the team isn't even that good. I remember two years ago, it was the Lakers and the Celtics, who both sucked at the time. The best that Tim Legler and Greg Anthony had to talk about was Delonte West's ability to take Smush Parker off the dribble, it was wicked exciting!!! Anyway. my point is, the only reason that that game was broadcast was the history of the teams, never mind what they happened to be at the time. Playing for the Lakers does make you a "media darling," just like if you play for the pinstripes in baseball, even though the Yankees haven't won a thing since '00. It's the exact same scenario, you get an immediate spotlight put on you for playing on big time teams, in big names cities.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
"big time cities"
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Another question... does the return of Derek Fisher, the guy he has played in the backcourt with for most of his career, not mean anything to the Lakers? He is a smart, veteran point guard who has played with Kobe and knows the triangle offense, does that not mean anything? Point guard is the most important position on the floor, and the Lakers have improved so much since last year. Just because Kobe is the star, he gets ALL of the credit for the turnaround? None of you Kobe-supporters seem to grasp that D-Fish is a HUGE upgrade over Smush Parker and Jordan Farmar starting for you, as they had last year.
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Jeff about 1 year ago
fdsf
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Jeff about 1 year ago
"I meant that you reply to an anonymous comment thinking you are talking to the same person, and then they fire back, " well I never said that! " That part of it is annoying"
i see, that's understandable
"Playing for the Lakers does make you a "media darling," just like if you play for the pinstripes in baseball, even though the Yankees haven't won a thing since '00. It's the exact same scenario, you get an immediate spotlight put on you for playing on big time teams, in big names cities."
you're confusing "media darling" with "media exposure". lebron james and chris paul are the media darling, while kobe is the media target. however, kobe has more media exposure than the other two players.
"does the return of Derek Fisher, the guy he has played in the backcourt with for most of his career, not mean anything to the Lakers? He is a smart, veteran point guard who has played with Kobe and knows the triangle offense, does that not mean anything?"
nobody said he isn't affecting the team. in fact, more than his play on the court, he adds tremendous amount of veteran wisdom to the team and that is one large reason for the lakers' success.
"Point guard is the most important position on the floor, and the Lakers have improved so much since last year."
you would be right under most normal circumstances, but in the triangle offense, the point guard doesn't exist- it's only a nominal position because every position facilitates and pushes the ball around. the lakers have definitely improved thanks to many factors.
"Just because Kobe is the star, he gets ALL of the credit for the turnaround?"
who said kobe deserved all the credit?
"None of you Kobe-supporters seem to grasp that D-Fish is a HUGE upgrade over Smush Parker and Jordan Farmar starting for you, as they had last year."
i'm quite sure EVERYONE realizes fisher is a HUGE upgrade over smush and farmar. nobody talks about because it's an obvious fact that's just a given.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
So Chris Paul having the same players as last year and Kobe getting "HUGE" upgrades from this season to last makes him a more viable MVP candidate? PG's don't win the MVP as much as they should anyway, and Paul should have gotten it this year.
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Jeff about 1 year ago
"So Chris Paul having the same players as last year and Kobe getting "HUGE" upgrades from this season to last makes him a more viable MVP candidate?"
chris paul had the same players as last year, but he did NOT have the same team. you're making the mistake of looking at the roster instead of looking at the team that actually played. last year peja missed nearly the entire season, and west also missed almost 40% of the season (and the hornets were losing badly when it was just chris paul without west). the hornets' roster might be the same as last year, but it's a totally different team because this year chris paul has EVERYONE playing healthy. i would consider that a huge "upgrade" without a doubt. chris paul didn't turn this team around as much as the fact that 2 of their top 3 players played almost the entire season this year. chris paul is great and is certainly a significant part of the team's success, but he's not the team's savior as the media likes to depict it.
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Jeff about 1 year ago
"and Paul should have gotten it this year."
paul was not undeserving of the mvp this year, but kobe deserved it over paul. ultimately, the only logical arguments i have seen have been in favor of kobe.
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Jeff about 1 year ago
"PG's don't win the MVP as much as they should anyway,"
in the last 25 years or so, point guards have won the mvp in 6 of those years. i would say that is vastly more than a fair distribution of mvp's to point guards, especially when jordan was dominating the landscape. not to mention nash won 2 in a row in the last 3 years, although that was clearly a mistake in retrospect.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
"last year peja missed nearly the entire season, and west also missed almost 40% of the season (and the hornets were losing badly when it was just chris paul without west). the hornets' roster might be the same as last year, but it's a totally different team because this year chris paul has EVERYONE playing healthy. i would consider that a huge "upgrade" without a doubt"
Chris Paul was a second year player and not nearly as good a shooter as he has been this year. Having all his teammates healthy has helped alot but he has improved significantly as an individual as well. Most guys really develop more into the player they're going to be for the rest of their career between their second and third seasons. Paul was still a second year guy, so that contributed to them losing as well.
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Jeff about 1 year ago
"Chris Paul was a second year player and not nearly as good a shooter as he has been this year. Having all his teammates healthy has helped alot but he has improved significantly as an individual as well. Most guys really develop more into the player they're going to be for the rest of their career between their second and third seasons. Paul was still a second year guy, so that contributed to them losing as well."
like i said, chris paul is an important factor to the team's success this year, but it is absolutely not even close to how people make it out to be (ie. "singlehandedly turn the team around"), which is the main reason cp3 fans believe he is the mvp. you're not really refuting my point here, and it doesn't change the fact that west and peja were not around last year like they both are this year. you can't tell me that chris paul's contributions are significantly more impacting than those of 2 top-tiered players combined, regardless of whether he was developed or not. taking into every factor considered here so far in our discussion, it's rather difficult to argue for why chris paul is a better mvp candidate than kobe.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
20 pts per game, 11 assists per game, 2.5 TO's per game, 2.7 steals per game, 4.6 rebounds per game ( as a 6'0" player too ) . Magic Johnson averaged 20 pts and 10 assists in a season three times, with his lowest TO figure being 3.5 per game. Paul avergaed 20 pts and 11 assists a game with 2.5 TO's. It is an absolute sham that someone plays that well in a season at the PG spot and doesn't win MVP. It is absolutely proposterous.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Refute that!
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
All three of those seasons Magic won the MVP.
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Jeff about 1 year ago
"20 pts per game, 11 assists per game, 2.5 TO's per game, 2.7 steals per game, 4.6 rebounds per game ( as a 6'0" player too ) . Magic Johnson averaged 20 pts and 10 assists in a season three times, with his lowest TO figure being 3.5 per game. Paul avergaed 20 pts and 11 assists a game with 2.5 TO's. It is an absolute sham that someone plays that well in a season at the PG spot and doesn't win MVP. It is absolutely proposterous."
uh james, that isn't even an actual argument, so i believe there's nothing to refute. why isn't it an argument? because you're comparing cp3 to magic, not cp3 to kobe- a logical fallacy. sure you can argue that cp3 was better this year than magic IN THE PAST, but that doesn't tell you who should deserve the mvp THIS YEAR. here's an easier way to see that: suppose some other player this year averages 35/10/8 and his team wins 70 games; what bearing does cp3's better performance over magic's in the past have when there's a clearly better player than cp3 this year? none, because you're making the wrong comparison.
let me give you another example (this is just hypothetical so it's not a true scenario):
suppose person A cured polio and person B cured diabetes 10 years ago, and person A won the nobel prize for medicine. now suppose person C cured aids and person D cured cancer this year. for argument's sake, let's say curing cancer is more important. so person D would win the nobel prize this year. now, just because person C's achievement is better than person A's achievement, doesn't automatically imply that person C should win the nobel prize, because in this case person D made a more valuable contribution than person C. this doesn't deny the fact that C also made a worthy contribution, just not more valuable than that of D's.
so one again, your argument is inherently flawed. sorry, you need to learn the principles of debate. (i don't mean that as an insult, just constructive criticism)
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
You just compared curing cancer to winning the NBA MVP. You are obviously reaching for argument's sake at this point. CP3 had a season that is comparible to some of the best seasons ever by ANY point guard. Given that he is a poing guard, the most important position on the floor, that simply cannot go without being recognized. Kobe is a shoot first player, that complained about how he wanted to be traded the entire offseason, and didn't become a good teammate until Pau Gasol showed up and the Lakers won 10 straight games. Paul's stats and accountabilty for almost every shot New Orleans takes is irrefutable!
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Jeff about 1 year ago
"You just compared curing cancer to winning the NBA MVP. You are obviously reaching for argument's sake at this point. CP3 had a season that is comparible to some of the best seasons ever by ANY point guard. Given that he is a poing guard, the most important position on the floor, that simply cannot go without being recognized."
ok, you see, this is exactly why i told you that you need to learn the principles of logic and debate first before you even think about making an argument. if you were insightful enough, you would have understood that the point of the analogy was NOT to compare curing cancer to winning the mvp. rather the point was to illustrate the CORRECT principle of reasoning and relativistic framing when faced with choosing the better between two options. who actually thinks that curing cancer is equally as valuable as winning the nba mvp? only an idiot would think that. the objects of the analogy are irrelevant here- i could have easily substituted the subject matter with computers or presidential candidates or schools or ice cream flavors- it does NOT matter that cancer was used. what DOES MATTER is the logic used when deciding which object is better than the other, which the analogy clearly manifests.
also, the point guard is NOT inherently the most important position on the floor. only if the team's offensive scheme calls for a point guard is he the most important, like the suns or hornets. for a team like the lakers that uses the triangle offense, a traditional point guard is unnecessary, and actually detrimental, to the team's flow. or if a team has a dominant center, then the point guard is not the most important position, just like during the lakers 3-peat era. so saying that the point guard is the most important position is only your opinion. there is no absolute value to a particular position- the value of a position is only relative and dependent on the team's structure.
"Paul's stats and accountabilty for almost every shot New Orleans takes is irrefutable!"
you need to stop making an arument based on isolated reasoning. on its own, it does NOT MATTER that chris is mostly responsible for the team's offense. of course that is an irrefutable fact- all you're saying is that he is a traditional point guard. just as the fact that kobe is a shooting guard is an irrefutable fact, or that phil jackson is responsible for designing the team's plays is an irrefutable fact, or that bush is responsible for the u.s. is an irrefutable fact. all of these, on their own, is meaningless without correctly framing them against another fact. otherwise all you're doing is stating meaningless facts that don't make an argument.
for example, i can say that it is irrefutable that steve nash is solely responsible for almost 90% of his team's offense. using your logical presentation, he would also be deserving of the mvp this year. but then you would counter that by saying that chris has better stats than nash, with which i would agree. see what happened here? you would have made the correct comparison, instead of making an isolated statement about chris paul, and chris paul alone.
"Kobe is a shoot first player, that complained about how he wanted to be traded the entire offseason, and didn't become a good teammate until Pau Gasol showed up and the Lakers won 10 straight games."
hmm, ever wonder why kobe is the team's shooting guard? because he shoots. just like chris paul is the point guard who facilitates, kobe's function is to score, just like jordan who took the most number of shots was the primary scorer on the bulls. but what makes kobe one of the best players is because not only does he shoot, but he also facilitates.
secondly, please don't try to distort the truth and make up lies. from DAY 1 of this season, he was praised by the ENTIRE media for being focused on basketball and putting the off-season chaos behind him. since DAY 1 kobe was facilitating for the team and deferring to his team mates, which is why until bynum went down, the lakers were the top 3 or 4 teams in the west and on pace to win 56 games. so your "information" is incorrect.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
"ok, you see, this is exactly why i told you that you need to learn the principles of logic and debate first before you even think about making an argument. if you were insightful enough, you would have understood that the point of the analogy was NOT to compare curing cancer to winning the mvp. rather the point was to illustrate the CORRECT principle of reasoning and relativistic framing when faced with choosing the better between two options. who actually thinks that curing cancer is equally as valuable as winning the nba mvp? only an idiot would think that. the objects of the analogy are irrelevant here- i could have easily substituted the subject matter with computers or presidential candidates or schools or ice cream flavors- it does NOT matter that cancer was used."
Well then why didn't you? That is a flat-out stupid example.
"also, the point guard is NOT inherently the most important position on the floor. only if the team's offensive scheme calls for a point guard is he the most important, like the suns or hornets. for a team like the lakers that uses the triangle offense, a traditional point guard is unnecessary, and actually detrimental, to the team's flow. or if a team has a dominant center, then the point guard is not the most important position, just like during the lakers 3-peat era. so saying that the point guard is the most important position is only your opinion. there is no absolute value to a particular position- the value of a position is only relative and dependent on the team's structure."
It is my opinion that Chris Paul's role on his team is more VALUABLE to the Hornets than Kobes' is to the Lakers. That is why we are having this conversation. Kobe Bryant plays in an offense in which three players of a certain type are needed, to use the triangle offense as a vantage point like you have, I will say this. You need a good wing shooter, a slasher and a big who can be effective in the post to play the traingle. Fisher is the shooter, and Pau or Bynum is the big. He had one of those two for most of the season. Kobe is a great scorer, and an outstanding player, but he has never shot over 46 percent in a season, has not won an NBA championship without one of the most dominant big men in the last 20 years, and is a far less efficent player than he is often given credit for.
He didn't even deserve this award as a lifetime-achievement type thing either. It's really quite perplexing that Kobe can take as many ill-advised shots as he does and be considered worthy of even slight comparisons to Michael Jordan. This is all because in the ESPN highlight reel era that we live in, and the fact that he is capable of making the flashy, sexy play gives him an undeserved glossing over his game that makes him look a little better than he actually is.
If I were to start a team today I would take Paul, Lebron or Duncan over Kobe. In my opinion, Kobe is the fourth best player in the NBA.
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Jeff about 1 year ago
"Well then why didn't you? That is a flat-out stupid example."
why didn't i? because i didn't have to. analogies can be made with a myriad of different objects as long as the logic and foundation is sound. like i said, any of those objects, including medical discoveries, would have validly conveyed the point. intelligent people understand that it's not the object that mattered in this analogy, but the logical parallelism between the two cases. that's what made it a good example. obviously you don't understand the nuances of debate to be able to discern what makes a good analogy or not. how stupid are you?
"It is my opinion that Chris Paul's role on his team is more VALUABLE to the Hornets than Kobes' is to the Lakers. That is why we are having this conversation. Kobe Bryant plays in an offense in which three players of a certain type are needed, to use the triangle offense as a vantage point like you have, I will say this. You need a good wing shooter, a slasher and a big who can be effective in the post to play the traingle. Fisher is the shooter, and Pau or Bynum is the big. He had one of those two for most of the season. Kobe is a great scorer, and an outstanding player"
again you display your flawed reasoning. just like kobe plays in a system that requires skilled players, in order for paul to even obtain the amount of assists he averages, he needs to have players who can make the shots- he has a solid big man in chandler for easy lobs, he has a deadly midrange shooter and finisher in west, and a dead eye shooter from long range in west. without these types of players, paul would be just another decent point guard. i'll come back to this in my next post below.
by the way, kobe has played almost 30% of the season without pau or bynum (that means playing without a big man at all), and never with both at the same time.
"but he has never shot over 46 percent in a season"
i doubt you understand that fg% is a very misleading stat. a better and more accurate metric is ts%, and both paul and kobe have the same percentage.
"has not won an NBA championship without one of the most dominant big men in the last 20 years,"
is this even a valid knock on kobe? when did we ever see a player win a ring without a stellar supporting cast? shaq didn't. jordan didn't. magic didn't. kareem didn't. bird didn't. duncan didn't. the pistons didn't. (and to even make it more interesting, even with superior talent nash was never able to lead the suns past the 2nd round- that's far more egregious than what you're trying to insinuate) so if none of the greats ever won a ring without superb team mates, why should it be a criticism of kobe? the truth is, the fact that they even made the playoffs with kobe in the line up for the last 2 seasons is an astronomical achievement and a tribute to phenomenal talent that only a handful in the history of the nba has had; who else in today's league do you think can lead a team that should be vying for the worst record in the league actually into the playoffs in the west or 1 rebound away from the second round? and if you think lebron can, that's obviously not true because this year lebron's team mates were finally as bad as the lakers had been the last 3 seasons, but he barely had a better record in the weaker eastern conference than what kobe was able to lead his team to in the western conference. look who kobe had: smush? kwame? cook? evans? mihm, not to mention pre-developed bynum, farmar, and sasha? the first two weren't even able to get bench time on the worst teams in the nba. without him, the lakers would have been consistent lottery bound teams up until this season.
"and is a far less efficent player than he is often given credit for."
he is a far more efficient player than given credit for because people don't understand how to analyze stats. they look at his plain fg% and say he is inefficient, when in fact his ts% is better than most and not too far behind jordan's. please do some research before making blind, opinionated statements.
"He didn't even deserve this award as a lifetime-achievement type thing either."
now you're just exuding blatant prejudice.
"It's really quite perplexing that Kobe can take as many ill-advised shots"
ill advised shots? ever heard of relativity? more talented players can shoot more difficult shots than average players, for which those shots would certainly be "ill advised".
"This is all because in the ESPN highlight reel era that we live in, and the fact that he is capable of making the flashy, sexy play gives him an undeserved glossing over his game that makes him look a little better than he actually is."
you think today's era is different from yesterday's? this is exactly how jordan was portrayed in the media in the past- solely his flashy moves and creative explosions. learn your history and think for yourself instead of following the crowd mentality.
"If I were to start a team today I would take Paul, Lebron or Duncan over Kobe. In my opinion, Kobe is the fourth best player in the NBA."
this is not even worth an actual response.
it's getting pretty obvious now that you really have nothing to say against sound analysis when most of your posts are turning into blanket statements and opinionated junk instead of solid reasoning.
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Jeff about 1 year ago
like i mentioned above, i'll explain why paul is over rated as the savior of the hornets.
1. chris paul does NOT make west better: everyone points to the fact that west's scoring average jumped up the year chris paul arrived to prove that chris affected that. first, let me explain that i don't doubt chris' impact on the floor- he's a great facilitator of the team. but facilitating and passing to a player is not sufficient for getting assists for the passer or points for the receiver. the receiver needs to have some ability to score consistently in order for this relation to work. for example, chris can pass to kwame brown as much as he wants, but chris will rarely get an assist and kwame will rarely get the points in this case. but on the other hand, no one cares to inspect that west was a star in college with obvious talent (not just potential, we're talking about manifest talent), and that his first 2 years on the hornets were spent as a bench player averaging about 13 and 18 minutes (not to mention his second season was cut short by an injury). is it really improbable, then, that a highly successful college player with sound fundamentals will not naturally improve on his OWN in the nba given more playing time? this isn't even a difficult concept to understand: a good player will generally become better given starter-status,more minutes, or a change in function on the team. just look at steve nash, baron davis, antawn jamison, and rashard lewis's careers as just a few of many examples who illustrate this principle. these players weren't untalented their first few seasons in the nba and then magically became better because of someone else later in their careers, and neither is this the case for david west. they became better on their own accord because they had talent to begin with and later became starters who played more minutes, and so with david west. chris paul can only give opportunities as a point guard, but he can't give a player talent. david west was going to get starter status, more minutes, and much more points and rebounds REGARDLESS of whether chris paul was his team mate or not. if you're going to credit chris paul for allowing west to score more, you then need to acknowledge the fact that west also greatly improves chris' assist average. remember the dual relationship here?
2. chris paul does NOT make tyson chandler better: once again we see people going crazy about how chris paul makes chandler better because he has higher scoring and rebounding averages. but do they care to inspect that when he was in chicago, he was not even a starter and that he averaged anywhere from 8 to 15 minutes less playing time than on the hornets? if you calculate the per minute stats when he was in chicago, and extrapolate that with respect to the minutes he plays on the hornets, they easily exceed anything he's averaging right now. so if chandler's chicago stats would have been the same or better than the numbers he's been putting up the last 2 seasons if he were playing the same minutes he's playing on the hornets, then is chris paul really making him any better? or is it the more likely case that chandler's just performing at his normal level? now, i'm sure chandler's scoring life is slightly easier with chris finding him open looks, but chris is NOT making chandler better. once again, this is a two way relationship.
3. chris paul does NOT make peja stojakovic better: everyone somehow says that peja was "over the hill" but chris made him better. obviously he's not going to be the same player he was in sacramento after playing so many years, but that definitely does not mean he's a poor player now. it only means that he's not as good relative to his own earlier years, but still an outstanding player in terms of absolute contribution. look at his stats. there's no real trend of great improvement or deterioration. and some people seem to forget that last season he missed almost the entire season- he wasn't "over the hill", he was injured. he has generally been consistent in how much and how well he scores. playing with chris did NOT make this 3 time all star, 2 time 3-point shootout champion, and one of nba history's top 3-point/free throw leader better.
so it's not true that chris paul does not have a stellar supporting cast.
here's something to look at: a full laker roster is a superior team to a full hornets roster, but the crucial thing to note is that the lakers didn't even have a full roster this year because bynum, ariza, and mihm (again) missed most of the season; and not only did pau come mid season, but he, too, missed a large portion of his time on the team. rad, luke, sasha, and odom missed games; and fisher is playing through a torn ankle and kobe played the entire season despite experiencing a sprained groin and, for the second half of the season, a torn finger on his shooting hand that requires immediate surgery. so when you look at the laker team that actually played this year, the talent gap is no longer there, and you can even argue that the hornets are slightly better in this case. so if kobe led his team to a better result while enduring a massacre to his team roster than chris whose team didn't suffer such misfortunes, who do you think is more valuable? now i realize that a few hornets did miss a couple games, but no one missed more than a couple games and (most importantly) no more than one player was injured at any given time. compare this to the laker team who has had multiple players out throughout the season, and had even played with an 8-man roster for a few games. the following article will give a more detailed look into this fact:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/17320-NBA-Kobe-Bryant-is-the-Clear-MVP-Over-Chris-Paul
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
"again you display your flawed reasoning. just like kobe plays in a system that requires skilled players, in order for paul to even obtain the amount of assists he averages, he needs to have players who can make the shots- he has a solid big man in chandler for easy lobs, he has a deadly midrange shooter and finisher in west, and a dead eye shooter from long range in west. without these types of players, paul would be just another decent point guard. i'll come back to this in my next post below."
I'm done with this. I'm done with someone who thinks Chris Paul would be an average point guard without what he has. Chris Paul has far inferior talent around him compared to Kobe Bryant. It's not even close. Oh, and sending me a link to an article about why Kobe should be MVP, blah blah blah. They all say the same thing.... "I'm obsessed with the 3-point shot and slam dunk and the flashy play that is ESPN glorified and don't actually know shit about basketball."
Kobe Bryant said himself that he can barely feel the finger injury because of the way it is cross taped, and he had either Bynum or Gasol for at least half of the games this season. Give Chris Paul Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum or Pau Gasol even for 40 games this year and this isn't even a discussion.
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Jeff about 1 year ago
"I'm done with this. I'm done with someone who thinks Chris Paul would be an average point guard without what he has. Chris Paul has far inferior talent around him compared to Kobe Bryant. It's not even close. Oh, and sending me a link to an article about why Kobe should be MVP, blah blah blah. They all say the same thing.... "I'm obsessed with the 3-point shot and slam dunk and the flashy play that is ESPN glorified and don't actually know shit about basketball."
Kobe Bryant said himself that he can barely feel the finger injury because of the way it is cross taped, and he had either Bynum or Gasol for at least half of the games this season. Give Chris Paul Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum or Pau Gasol even for 40 games this year and this isn't even a discussion. "
the linked article's main point isn't even an opinion, it's relaying facts- you know, like how many games players missed and for how long. i hope you haven't regressed so far that you can't even distinguish opinions versus facts now.
and yes, chris already has a player just as good as gasol in west, and a player better than bynum in chandler. so let's do give chris pau or bynum. we'd gladly take west in return for pau, or chandler in return for bynum. i already undeniably proved to you how great paul's team is and the near equivalence of the lakers and hornets. and don't try to insinuate that having an injury that requires surgery benefits a player the same way as having no injury.
you know what the difference between you and me is? (besides the obvious intellectual disparity, of course) it's that even i recognize that paul is a great player- he just didn't deserve it over kobe; however, you have insinuated that even at the least kobe doesn't deserve the mvp as a lifetime achievement award (which it wasn't). your claim is what is preposterous, given kobe has proven time and time again over a decade his greatness, while chris paul has had only 1 great season so far.
tough huh? trying to fight against logic. you've been done long ago- just look back at every post, and you and everyone else can see how every single one of your assertions has been disproved.
there's a wise saying: "Never argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience". if you can't even handle basic reasoning skills, it's obviously going to be a waste of my time continuing with you any form of debate, something that is inherently dependent on good use of logic and analysis. like i said, this debate was over long ago, so good day to you and better luck with whatever else you might attempt.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
That is why I'm not answering your posts anymore.
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
there's a wise saying: "Never argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience". if you can't even handle basic reasoning skills, it's obviously going to be a waste of my time continuing with you any form of debate, something that is inherently dependent on good use of logic and analysis. like i said, this debate was over long ago, so good day to you and better luck with whatever else you might attempt.
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Ump about 1 year ago
Dude, I can't believe I actually read this entire conversation here and sorry to anyone if this is rehashing old news, but I had to comment because this is the kind of crap that really ticks me off. No, not who should have won the MVP, but people who can't think, and thus don't even have the capability to realize their own errors.
I could care less who won the MVP. If James were the one who made the logical arguments for why CP3 should have been the MVP, I would agree that CP3 should have won. I'm not a fan of either CP3 or Kobe, I'm just a fan of good basketball and good dialogue.
But in this case, it's pretty sad that James lives in this state of denial where he thinks he made an argument for CP3, when in reality Jeff completely ripped them apart. People can't pretend winning a debate. There's just no pretending stuff like this because it's in plain view for everyone to see. It's like living in denial that you're 6ft tall when everyone can see that you're really only 5ft tall. It's like if Gore beat Bush in a debate and the entire country saw it, but Bush kept saying that he won and that Gore is stupid. It's like arguing with a kid who thinks that babies come from storks, and he's convinced he's right while everyone else is wrong. The intelligent adults know better, so it doesn't even mean anything if the kid tries to insult you because everyone knows the kid is wrong. So pretend all you want James, it doesn't change the fact that your arguments are wrong.
And who cares if Kobe won the MVP. Give it to Chris for all I care. What matters is winning the title, and the last time I checked, the Lakers made it to the finals while the Hornets got ousted in the 2nd round.
The most hilarious thing about all this is the last thing James posted (and couldn't even word it himself so had to copy it). It perfectly sums up his state of denial and blindness to rationality that I was referring to earlier. "That is why I'm not answering your posts anymore." Lol, you're not fooling anyone there...you sound like a 10 year old kid repeating the "I know you are but what am I" shtick because he either can't think of anything to say or knows he got humiliated. Pretty sad how you try to twist the situation to make it look like you're the one who actually knows what you're talking about. Smart people can see through that pretense (not that they need to since the evidence is all up there for everyone to see). So all in all, it's obvious that this James character is the one who doesn't have "basic reasoning skills". You don't have to be a brain surgeon to see that (then again, you probably do since idiots like James are uneducated) Anyway, this turned into a long rant but had to do it since people like James irk me to the core. Looking at the history of this article, I won't be surprised if a foolishly tenacious James tries to lash out against my post, so the buck stops here for me. Better things to do than to get ensnared in a "debate" with someone who can't process proper reasoning. Sayonara
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James McNamee about 1 year ago
Ump, this happened months ago, and by your logic, KG should have won the MVP because my Celtics did just win the championship. This is a regular season award ump, post-season doesn't matter. If it was such a waste of your time, then why did you leave a post in the first place. Why don't you go back and write an article yourself, so you will see that in every instance there are people who agree with you and people who don't. Talk about being late to the party, jesus....
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